Stock Records 95% Rule

[guedo499]

http://social.apba.org/discussion/230/stock-records-now-at-95

[blueskyracer]

good luck on that John...

[Jim Sweeney]

I was also suprised this rule passed. Everyone in my family voted against this.World records are somthing that SHOULD be difficult to achieve. Passing rules to make it easier only cheapens the effort of the current record holder. In my opinion this was a bad decision made by people looking for an easy way to get points for the hall of champions. JIM SWEENEY

[Matt Dagostino]

I was also suprised this rule passed. Everyone in my family voted against this.World records are somthing that SHOULD be difficult to achieve. Passing rules to make it easier only cheapens the effort of the current record holder. In my opinion this was a bad decision made by people looking for an easy way to get points for the hall of champions. JIM SWEENEY

If i remember the discussion on this at the SORC Meeting in Detroit the logic was many of the current records were set years ago when transom heights and weights and restrictors etc etc wern't in place. Some on the Commission argued that breaking those old records would basically impossible in 2011 and beyond. The J Class records is a BOD/J Committee issue which i don't know if they addressed????

But then again my memory ain't what it use to be!....:pullhair:

[blueskyracer]

I was also suprised this rule passed. Everyone in my family voted against this.World records are somthing that SHOULD be difficult to achieve. Passing rules to make it easier only cheapens the effort of the current record holder. In my opinion this was a bad decision made by people looking for an easy way to get points for the hall of champions. JIM SWEENEY

Ask to see the ballots?

[Black Sheep]

I'm with Mr. Sweeney on this one. I took a while, but even the records that were set without transom heights are beginning to fall. I guess people don't wanna try that hard... When in doubt and you can't achieve a goal, just lower the bar... GOOD JOB!

J-Dub

[Black Sheep]

I mean really... Look at the records the Froelich's set 20 years ago WITH transom heights and the same rules we have today? WTF?

[dwilderacer]

The Sidewinder on my Sorensen and a 2 3/4 mph bonus..... Frolichs ASR Kilo record is ours!

[Matt Dagostino]

I guess people don't wanna try that hard... When in doubt and you can't achieve a goal, just lower the bar... GOOD JOB!

J-Dub

The bar was lowered years ago when the racing community decided to make a record course for every day of the week. In the day you had the kilo record for a class and one competition record (1 2/3 mile)...........in my humble opinion competition records are a joke. The ole reference book looks like a crossword puzzle of all the different types of competition records. All shapes and sizes.

If i was king for a day i would scrub our record book clean and one STANDARD measured competition record per class would rule!!!!.....

As for Jim's comment about the HOC, i agree, the new record calculation deal could be a back door to the HOC. But again, if i were king for a day records would not be a HOC criteria since you really don't have to compete against anybody of subtance to set a record. After all the HOC stands for Hall Of Champions, not Hall Of Records...............

Just a thought, not a sermon.

[daveracerdsh]

I have to admit I am on the fence over this issue.....the thing that bothers me about it is that records were set in some classes under a different set of rules then exist now....I can honestly see both sides of the argument. That being said, I have to agree with Jim....records SHOULD be difficult to get...in all classes....if we make it so that anybody can get one it sure does cheapen it in my humble opinion. But, on the flip side, most stock classes are going faster and faster every year....In D stock on the mile last month I was very close to breaking the record, but did not. Maybe if the weather was cooler etc (it was very warm and humid when we ran) I also feel Gweedo could have got it. (sure not trying to toot my own horn....just so people know.) Where I disagree with Matt is course size....yah, I know a mile and 2/3 course along with kilos were the only record courses in outboarding for a long time, but I think having several options as to course size makes things far more interesting, along with the fact that due to water conditions (lake level etc) at Yelm there are some years we cant run the big course.. Also, I can honestly say I am scared of the mile 2/3 course....A good D stock would be hitting the mid 80's at the end of the straight...and after seeing what happened to my fill in driver at kilos when he blew my rig over going 86 I want nothing to do with those speeds. Just some random thoughts. David:crazy

[mercguy]

I have to admit I am on the fence over this issue.....the thing that bothers me about it is that records were set in some classes under a different set of rules then exist now....I can honestly see both sides of the argument. That being said, I have to agree with Jim....records SHOULD be difficult to get...in all classes....if we make it so that anybody can get one it sure does cheapen it in my humble opinion. But, on the flip side, most stock classes are going faster and faster every year....In D stock on the mile last month I was very close to breaking the record, but did not. Maybe if the weather was cooler etc (it was very warm and humid when we ran) I also feel Gweedo could have got it. (sure not trying to toot my own horn....just so people know.) Where I disagree with Matt is course size....yah, I know a mile and 2/3 course along with kilos were the only record courses in outboarding for a long time, but I think having several options as to course size makes things far more interesting, along with the fact that due to water conditions (lake level etc) at Yelm there are some years we cant run the big course.. Also, I can honestly say I am scared of the mile 2/3 course....A good D stock would be hitting the mid 80's at the end of the straight...and after seeing what happened to my fill in driver at kilos when he blew my rig over going 86 I want nothing to do with those speeds. Just some random thoughts. David:crazy

****, if you are scared to go mid 80's in a D stock, gimme your prop...........I ain't skeered!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

[daveracerdsh]

Well Darren...maybe scared is not the best wording I could have used...let's just say very very nervous....85 or so in a 11foot 5 inch boat is pushing the limits in my opinion....maybe a bigger boat designed just for setting records? Who knows. As far as props go.....I just got dang lucky is all. It sure as heck is not the boat I built...and the motor is just the same as yours. I can remember a lot of races where I watched the back end of your rig go by me...lol. We need to keep the dialog open on the record debate though....David.

[Racerkyle20]

When this rule first came up, I thought this would be a great way to get more people to kilos and/or record races again. Stock records are HARD....it's stock, so what you can do to the boat, motor, prop is very limited. I just set the mile CSR record that was 20 years old. I have the current FAH record that I set in 2002. That record was 8 years old....It takes time to get records. And getting those records felt awesome knowing all my hard work paid off.

BUT what does this do for my 2 current records that I hold....It makes me want to break the grandfathered record that much more. If I am the first one to break my own mile CSR record, the record gets bumped llike normal and the 95% rule is out. So for next year's lawrence that is my goal.

To clarify it's going to take a few time to break the actual 95% rule. APBA recogonise's only 1 record set every 4 days. That means one cannot break the 95% of a record saturday, then turn around sunday and break that to get HOC points. It's going to take at least the second try to get the HOC points. How many record races are there in the US next year? maybe more now...but i can only think of Lawerance (twice for some classes), Dayton, and maybe Lousiana? Region 10 may have the advantage, but whats to say both lawrence's will have the same course. The inboards like the 1 1/4 course while us outboarders have liked the mile recently.

To finish My guess if more people were at the national meeting to counter argue for this rule it would not have gone to a vote. Listening to more arguements against it later makes me think we were wrong...

[Ron Hill]

It seems to me that in the computer age, we could keep track of ever record known to man.

In the old days rule changes helped records get broken, like lowing the weight, .030 pistons or doing away with weights....

Keeping track of the record was hard, so they just dropped things from the book.

Having a five year "CYCLE" for records would make sense to me. Keeping OLD record on the APBA web site doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do. Every Five years, start "FRESH" but don'tr just erase the RECORD for the record book. Note: These records are from 2012-2017. Next time say Note: These records are from 2017-2022.

I'd like to see a KG-4 A Runabout record still be in the "BOOKS"..."Dropping current records seems wrong to me.
I will add again, maybe I don't understand this 95% rule.

[Haüenstein]

It seems to me that in the computer age, we could keep track of ever record known to man.

In the old days rule changes helped records get broken, like lowing the weight, .030 pistons or doing away with weights....

Keeping track of the record was hard, so they just dropped things from the book.

Having a five year "CYCLE" for records would make sense to me. Keeping OLD record on the APBA web site doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do. Every Five years, start "FRESH" but don'tr just erase the RECORD for the record book. Note: These records are from 2012-2017. Next time say Note: These records are from 2017-2022.

I'd like to see a KG-4 A Runabout record still be in the "BOOKS"..."Dropping current records seems wrong to me.
I will add again, maybe I don't understand this 95% rule.

This got me thinking about two things. 1) A searchable record archive would be awesome, and 2) What if there was one set of all-time records and then separate recognition for each year's records? This could spark more interest in record races and would be a nice addition to more people's racing résumés.

If the driver isn't over the all-time (100%? 95%? 97.5%?) record, they would need to pass a more limited tear-down to be recognized as the 2013 CSH 1-mile Record Holder or whatever. And we have all winter to debate HOC points, etc., for this idea.

[Ron Hill]

To quote Hauenstein, "A searchable record archive would be awesome."

In an INFORMATION AGE, it would be awesome to see records like Rich Fuchlin's 04 or 97 MPH F Runabout record listed...This was when F was 60 Cubic inches. Or when Ted May went 98 MPH in a D Stock Hydro boat with Harry Bartolomei's four carb Konig. I'd like to see Canadian records too, like when Fred Hauenstein broke the 500 CC Hydro record in Valleyfield, 1967.

Add:

Current record would be a five year window, All Time record would be ALL TIME. Record run could be opened up for like 20-H races, or KG-4....

But making this "ARCIVE" would take some work. I think Mike Wienandt has many OPC records listed somewhere...

[Ron Hill]

This is the way that records were listed, All Time Records, then you could list yearly records...

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

Or something like this

http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/speed_records.html

[joejohn44]

Ron, Was tickled to see that 1964 program. My father's name JUMPED off the page at me as kilo record holder in CU. I have the U.I.M. certificate hanging on the wall in my office. My cousin, Joe Pater, still has the boat.

[ram95]

This certainly is a son-of-a-gun to sort out. And, there's a lot more in this discussion than just 'records'. In a way, it relates to how we function. Perhaps the record should just be for that particular racing year. Period. And, if no one ran the kilo in that particular class 'that next year' then the previous record holder would hold the record until it was broken.

Somehow, we have got to accept the fact that different changes to that class, like weight, cubic inches, loop-charged motors, etc mean that a new record will no doubt be set. And, when it does, it will hold for at least a year. AND, remain as such in the record books for THAT year forever.
I think some of you have already said this, but this is my wording of it.

Alex

[daveracerdsh]

It is pretty cool to see what the speeds were in the 60s...kinda scary to think that in DSH we are going well over 80 in competition.....when the kilo record was in the high 70s....I do think the 95% rule is going to help races...many of the records were set when transom height rules did not exist. The rules have changed..thus the precedent for records should also change. Just my 3 cents worth. David. Oh ya..merry Christmas everybody.

[mercguy]

It is pretty cool to see what the speeds were in the 60s...kinda scary to think that in DSH we are going well over 80 in competition.....when the kilo record was in the high 70s....I do think the 95% rule is going to help races...many of the records were set when transom height rules did not exist. The rules have changed..thus the precedent for records should also change. Just my 3 cents worth. David. Oh ya..merry Christmas everybody.


Dave says "in DSH we are going well over 80 in competition"

............no wonder I am getting my ass kicked!!!!!!!

[daveracerdsh]

Well Darren, you have a good motor and with new lighter boat I bet you pick up at least 1 or 2 mph....I am looking forward to this season....and this year I am gonna get the inside lane from you.........:boat:

[mercguy]

Well Darren, you have a good motor and with new lighter boat I bet you pick up at least 1 or 2 mph....I am looking forward to this season....and this year I am gonna get the inside lane from you.........:boat:



".and this year I am gonna get the inside lane from you".....................you can try...........

[blueskyracer]

...and this year I am gonna get the inside lane from you.........

Dave this is not recomended