S.O. NAtional Mtg. Highlights

[CSH12M]

Ok, here are the highlights that I can recall.....

1/2 Mile 3 lap records were approved

An appeal procedure was outlined for National Championship events

2US will be the number given to the "High Point" champion

Scale certification was redefined for once a season and two weeks prior to a National Championship event

8 boat minimum required at the Marathon Nationals to recieve hall point

Fuel testing and procedures redefined, this was a big topic. We adopted the "germaine" (spelling could be way off) fuel test procedure and created a one year suspenion if you fail the "lab" test of your fuel. Basically....if you run that toxic stuff that boosts your fuel we will find it, test you at a lab, and you will get a huge penalty.

A class - Let the A drivers decied - the .700 restrictor will be a ballot item for A drivers.

B class - New ignition was approved, it is a replacement for the motoplat

25XS - I believe their were no changes

20SSH - Minor technical changes to gearcase specs

CSH - Minor technical changes to gearcase specs

CSR - Minor technical chages to gearcase specs and FOR POLLING PURPOSES ONLY a ballot item asking the CSR drivers if they would like to lower CSR weight to 450 in the future. Again this is for information only.....

DSH/DSR - We made the Bass motor probationary. HOWEVER, IS WAS VERY VERY STRESSED THAT THE CURRENT 44XS would remain the motor of choice well into the future and the investments made by those to reproduce this motor would be the highest priority in making equipment decision regarding the D class. That said the commision felt you can not turn your back on someone offering a EPA exempt 2 stroke for the future.

45ssst - I beleive we awarded the Nationals and Marathon Nationals for 45 to somewhere on the west coast.

These are the highlights I can rememeber......

Lowering the number of races from 15 to 12 for highpoints lost twice on a 7 to 7 tie and the S.O. category chairman would not break the tie either time.

25SSR was discussed at length and several proposals failed that were aimed at slowing down the Yamato.

I thought Mr. Hearn ran an excellent Mtg. and has a format that allows a lot to be done in the minimal amount of time given. I was very disappointed that several commissioners were not in attendance.

These are just the cliff notes versions of the meeting that I can remember. I have tried to state them without opinion and as facts. However, I will love to see the opinions that are to follow and will be sure to post some of my own.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

[jsilvestri]

Dean,
Thanks for the update.

Concerning some of the topics discusses, I would not like to see the weight of CSR increased.

[CSH12M]

Joe read the thread again.

CSR weight 450, it is 470 now, that would be a 20lbs reduction. It will be on the ballot FOR INFORMATION ONLY to see it the CSR drivers want it reduced.

Make sure to vote to voice your opinion.

Thanks,
Dean

[CSH12M]

Hello Brant I do not have them here at work. You can call T.J. and he could give them to you today.

Basically on the 20SSH we added some dimension to the overall height of the gearcase. It had rarely been inspected until this years nationals, when a lot of drivers discovered they were under. T.J. measured up all of his in the shop and found a few stock ones (never touched, still with buldge) that were under. So we lengthened it a bit.

Also on the cone diameter for 102 we added a bit of dimension. The CD is always right on the money from the factory, so one touch to it and you are under. We added a touch to give a bit more leway.

Those are all I can remember off the top of my head. They will be published soon, or a call to T.J. will give you specifics if you need them today.

Thanks,
Dean

[crankbearing]

Dean,

I appreciate the considersation given to the people trying to reman the 44xs.

Your comment states that the consideration given to the new "D" was for a epa exempt motor into the future.

When the discussion on this motor was going on. Did anyone discuss the availaibility of parts, distrubution ideas of this motor. Cost etc...

As we are finding slowly this powerhead is not available in the US or Canada. So we are relying on Mr. Bass to have full backup inventory of all these parts for anything the P/H may require.

Look at the Yamato issues on parts currently. The last point is if this motor is not available in North America and the two stroke rule hits in 2006 what manufacturer in the world is going to continue to produce a powerhead that they do not have to.

The bottom line will always prevail. Just wondering if all points were covered.

Regards,

[mike ross]

Dave I was at the meeting and I think that the Mercury is safe providing all involved in getting someone a new motor could do so. Currently it takes a racer that is very comfortable with doing all the assembly from all the current parts suppliers. The biggest suggestion that made sence was to get a few of these motors assembled. Then a new racer could buy the motor completely assembled and ready to go. The new motoer they passed as probationary has not even been produced yet. It is all on paper and looks like it would be a very nice motor. The mercury is looks like it ready for production and just needs everyone to step up and get it built and the d classes are set. Good luck MIke

[CSH12M]

Yes Dave those points were discussed, and I would remphasize again. The 44xs and the people reproducing those parts can feel confident that motor will remain the primary equipment option in the DSH and DSR class.

As far as it being sold outside of N.A. that was not seen as a problem. The Yamato is also produced outside of N.A. and imported. Because the mojority of the world does not have EPA standars it only makes sense that most 2 strokes will be sold their and not in N.A. Therefore we could expect this will probably be the case for any two stroke we try and race in the future. Also relying on one person or importer for parts is considered a reasonable requirement for engine manufacturing for our category. I will again point out that is the case for many of our engines and will be more so in the future. The day of any factory sponsorship of equipment is long gone. As a matter of fact current 44XS drivers will have to depend on you for certain parts, so this is not seen as a negative aspect.

As I mentioned before to "kill" this motor before it ever gets built would be crazy. We do not have anyone knocking on our door offering to do what Mr. Bass has. That said, asking for it to be leaglized before a prototype is ever built is equally crazy.

These were my opinions as a commisioner on this topic.

Again I applaud your effort with the 44xs motor. I hope you can get all parties involved with reproducing parts together so that assembly and distrbution can be streamlined to help change the racers perceptions on equipment availablity of the 44xs and we can get a few more on the water next year.

Thanks for doing all you have done so far and do not be afraid to ask the S.O. commission for help in any of the hurrdles you are still facing. We are very committed to helping the people that are actually making an effort to produce equipment. As proven by the funding of the Merc. tower.

Thanks,
Dean

[dholt]

12,

What happened regarding the Hall of Champions points restructuring?

And why didn't the SORC Chairman break the tie regarding High Point minimum number of races???

D.

[CSH12M]

WHats up D.H.

The "Hall" restructuring got killed, I am not sure if I had any support outside my own. Apparently no one really wants "National" classes......

Ask the category chairman why he did not break the tie concerning number of races? I was very disappointed he did not vote one way or the other....

The category chair did break the tie on approving 1/2 mile records though. So get ready to watch them again at Dayton.....

Later,
Dean

[crankbearing]

Thanks Dean for the Clarifications. Point well taken about me being the only guy for parts and pieces.

Mike, the fact of the matter is that the motors I am selling are bult by me and built to current required 44xs specs.

They need not do anything but pull the cord and go.

Our hurdle currently are driveshafts, I have secured a run of shafts via the company that turned them out for Mercury and these would be exactly as they were when new. I have recalculated the cost and the best we could do is 250US dollars per shafts and in order to do this I would have to ship them from a racer in the US. As I could not afford to bring them to Canada and then ship them back at that cost.

We need get the boot remanufactured and available this would involve getting many of the gearboots (cases from Jerry) and assembly of those lower units for sale.

I figured out the cost and we could in reality rebuild and sell that lower unit for 1200 roughly dollars US. That is complete and beand new. We would need to get the orders to secure that for I would need the racers help to get a few small pieces made up in runs. I cannot flip the bill for the whole thing, half down as a deposit help to get reuquired parts and pieces to assemble.

It is the same with the complete motors. I have purchased mid-section and powerheads. I have squared and machined the blocks, I have secured a line of ignition components if required. I have gotten all the small pieces ready to run. Chokes, throttle, etc..

The deposits in the motors allow us to purchase the driveshafts, pistons, etc..etc..

After a few are on the water then the deposit issue will not be as bad, but will still be required to some extent.

I looked back through the numbers and if I recall a new 44XS in 87 or 88 was around 3500-3800USD. A new motor in our production schedule is around 4500 - 4800 depending on the dollar in your favour. This is not a huge difference in the amount when you consider the difference in years and times.

I like the next guy realize that DSH is not an inexpensive class to get into and trust on the matter of availabilty is a concern. I have been honest in this whole arrangement sense day 1 and have reported any changes or differences or requirements to this site and many other since it's inception.

I cannot do any of this without the support of the racers and any other help we can get.

The more funds or purchased products the faster we can get ten motors on the water. I just cannot fund it all.

10 motors @ 4500 USD is roughly 60K CDN in investment to maintain. I would be single and broke. I leave it to the racers.

Regards,

[CSH12M]

Dave don't just leave it in the hands of the racers.....

I wish you or a representative of your project would have presented at the Nat. mtg. or at least given a written report. Unfortuately Dave I think this project is existing in a vacuume.
I know you have done a lot to push it, however, we need to do more. Is the wesite up and running yet is it linked here?


I know you need orders to assemble.....however, some assembled motors are necessary first to build some stock to give guys confidence in your ability to manufactur. MAYBE this is an area S.O. Commision could help.

Answer me this....If the S.O. wanted to see 3 44xs motors completely assembled and advertised (we will figure out how later) how much would it cost to get them completed? I assume then as sold we would recoup our share of the investment? Ask the S.O. for help possibly even partnership or at least inform. us better to your project. Otherwise, (and I say this with respect) you are just another racer trying to do something in a vacuume, and it is hard to take that seriously when in a Nat, Mtg. trying to make long term decision.

Dave give me a number to give you a ring at offline to discuss this furthur.

Thanks,
Dean

[Brian10s]

Dean,
Any info on either the NAC proposal or the "cold water" proposal?

If you remember, what was the discussion/ reasoning that both went down in flames?

Thanks,
Brian

[crankbearing]

Sure Dean,

My number in the evenings is

613-836-2365. I should be home after 6PM Est.

Regards,

[Dave M]

Originally posted by Brian10s
Dean,
Any info on either the NAC proposal or the "cold water" proposal?

If you remember, what was the discussion/ reasoning that both went down in flames?

Thanks,
Brian

I have heard this got shot down. Why I will never know. It is a no brainer. Get a clue. Simple soulution, if you are cold, don't signal you are OK, they have to come get you. I for one am not going to signal I am OK when racing in that below 55 water. Screw it. I blew over in 42 degrees, water temps below that. That was very cold, and EMTs said I had beggining stages of hypothermia. My choice to signal, or not to signal.

For all categories accross the board, I am dissapointed in each of you that this proposal was shot down. Unbelivable !!! I see friggin red flags thrown when a guy stalls in the damb corner and they think I stress THINK he might be in a bad position. What the he!! do you call lying in 50 degree water, not being able to move much cause your numb ? I call it a bad position.

I don't know why this got a burr under my saddle, but it sure the heck did. Disapointed is almost an understatement.

[jsilvestri]

A rebuttle to my earlier comment, I would not like to see the weight changed at all in CSR, just my opinion.

[CSH12M]

As usual Dave you fly off the handle without waiting to hear any explanation.

This was not shot down in flames, on the contrary we are going to make sure every Outboard official see the facts that were presented and understands the effects of cold water. We feel these guidlines as presented should be followed at EVERY event.
However, we stopped short of a rule because of liability and insurance issues and were advised to handle it in this manner.

Brian in regards to N.A.C. points, it really did not break out into a huge discussion. Therefore I can only give you my reasoning. I voted it down because if it did receive double points that would make four races that have bonus points. Nationals, Winter Nationals, Divisionals, NAC. I feel this is to many.....to win the points in CSH this year I had to race in Florida, California, and Depue. Whereever the NAC would of been I would have gone. I just think it is to much to ask. I had a over a 400 average Kargus was second and he was over 400 as well and did not win because he had not gone to the Winter Nat's. I know the arguement of one more double point might help by letting you miss one. My opinion is it would not... thier are still a small handfull that will hit them all making it that much harder for the ones who can not.

So, I voted no for the reasons stated above.

Thanks,
Dean

[Bill Pavlick]

Brian,

TJ read the NAC proposal to the commission and quite honestly it was very difficult to follow and understand, therefore no one made a motion on it. I would suggest that if you, or anyone else for that matter, has a proposal send it to all of the commissioners several weeks before the meeting so we can all review it and understand it.

I think the cold water issue needs to be and can be addressed by the race committee and should be a guideline, not a rule. Having said that I will make sure I take a water temp reading at Burlington and will announce it at driver's mtg. The local race committee can decide whether or not to throw the red flag if the water is cold enough and announce it at driver's mtg. The proposal made perfect sense, however, it did not address some issues. Such as: The rule is in effect and Joe Racer is winning a heat and someone falls in the water. The heat is stopped. Joe screws up on the restart and finishes in the back of the pack. Joe then procedes to protest the red flag. He asks where the water temp was taken? when it was taken? was the thermometer calibrated? if so, when? etc etc. You can also maybe see some legal complications as well arising if someone is injured. Everyone thought that this was common sense and we were not prepared to open a Pandora's box without understanding all of the possible outcomes.

Bill

[Brian10s]

Dean,
You were at NAC and you did win them. I guess the lack of additional points let it slip your mind. NAC's were at Whitney Point and I remember our discussion at the time about NAC and the fact that they were not worth additional points. I guess your opinion has changed since then. No big deal. I figured it never would have gone anyway.

As for the "cold water" proposal. Don't take it out on Dave. I had a hand in getting his blood boiling, so I will take all responsibility.

If there was a recomendation to not pass the proposal because of liability, that is one thing. If it was just dismissed as something that was too remote to happen , then that's another thing.
If there is going to be additional information and training for Referee's on this subject, as well as "Spelled Out" guidelines, to take the guesswork out of this decision, then I would say we have taken a step forward.

I will await further information.

Brian 10s

[Brian10s]

Bill,
The NAC Proposal was sent out to all MY commissioner in late Oct or early Nov. While I appoligize of it not being as clear when read as it was in my head when I wrote it, I would be happy to explain my thoughts to you if you so choose. However, I did not beleive it would get very far anyway, so really it isn't that big an issue with me. I do appreciate TJ presenting it, anyway.

As for your (not nessessary yours but . . .) concerns, I will try and answer them as such. What happens now? When Joe Racer protests the red flag currently, what happens? Why would this be any different? When a fellow racer is in a bad spot on the course, why would it be different (ie in the racing groove or in water temp X). Both propose a danger to the driver. Why is there a difference in how it would be handled?

I would think that the cost of doing nothing outweigh the cost of upsetting "Outfront Joe".

But that's just my opinion,

Brian

[jsilvestri]

It seems to me that more guidelines make simple common sense things more complicated. Can't some things be chalked up as commom sense by a race committee.

[brian]

What is the issue here? No rules are good rules. If you want out fast keep your hands down. I feel the same as Dave, I too took a swim that weekend it was a bit chilly.

[dholt]

Good to see a few SO Commissioners on here responding to those they are chosen to represent.

I have spoken to Dean already about this, but would like to hear from others that were there.

I understand the proposal submitted about a sliding scale for Hall of Champions points for National High Points was soundly defeated. Basically, the plan would award HOC points based on participation. Currently, every National High point winner receives 5 HOC points, whether they beat out 5 or 150 boats for the "title".

Nearly all other achievements have criteria in order to receive HOC points.

National Champ...must have full field
Divisional Champ...8 boat minimum
Winter Natls...8 boats (I believe...don't have the book in sight right now)

There are others. I believe the only criteria for High Point is "must participate in 'x' number of races)

Point is...beating 100 boats for a High Point title is one heck of a lot more difficult than beating 20 other boats.

Some may argue.."I shouldn't be penalized for running a class with fewer participants." It's not a penalty, but a fair reward for those that compete where the competition is.

And we all have the freedom to choose whatever class we desire. If we choose a lower participation class, then we should accept the consequences...whether it be for HOC points or not getting 2 heats at a weekend race, or getting combined or whatever.


Dana

[mercguy]

"Some may argue.."I shouldn't be penalized for running a class with fewer participants." It's not a penalty, but a fair reward for those that compete where the competition is"



What if the race does not have a ton of boats entered and still is the biggest class on the sanction? What you are saying is that those of us out here on the West Coast are not competitive!!! Just because we do not have full fields like you guys do, does not mean we are not competitive! It really gets under my skin what you have stated.............:mad:

If it were up to you and the rule made to relay what you have stated, we (Reg10/11/22), might just as well quite racing, since we would not have a shot at a title.......

[dholt]

Darren,

You've missed my point. I should have posted the entire proposal.

The proposal based HOC points on National participation.

For example....BSR (which I race and have raced for 14 years) would receive fewer HOC points than CSH (which has 120 plus boats) for a National High Point title.

Any arguement with that?


Dana

[mercguy]

Originally posted by dholt
Darren,

You've missed my point. I should have posted the entire proposal.

The proposal based HOC points on National participation.

For example....BSR (which I race and have raced for 14 years) would receive fewer HOC points than CSH (which has 120 plus boats) for a National High Point title.

Any arguement with that?


Dana

now I understand what you are trying to say Dana.......thanks!

[14-H]

Bill: I appreciate your willingness to do something about the cold water at Burlington. Now, how about the mud? Actually, that keeps me quite warm when I dump at Burlington. It's the getting-out-of-the-water that's really cold. Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrlington! Oh, yeah, don't forget the brown socks and underwear.... Yuk.

Bottom line here is that the race officials need to be aware of the race conditions. This is, by definition, the Referee's responsibility.

[Brian10s]

Here is why I would rather have a red flag by the judges stand than a no signal by the driver:

1st - a red flag by the stand is a controlled stopage or the heat (as controlled as it gets). Drivers are looking out for each other and are slowing down on their own and with those around them. When a rescue boat does not see a driver signal, they take off NOW! This means rollers and a much larger boat entering the racing circut at differect directions than the racers are going. While this is not a bad thing when a driver is injured, it might not be the best practice when it is cold out. Also, I do not beleive that we want our rescue people to have to react like that all the time because we become "the boys who cried wolf".

To answer Joe's response, why rules/ guidelines to what should be common sense. What if your common sense does not match those of others? What is to make them (speaking for years previous not up comming) use common sense? Nothing! What would be the first thing you do Joe if you are left in cold water until the end of the heat or left in the patrol boat while we run this next heat or whatever? I think I know what you would do:D It's the same as most of us. But why do we need to get in someone's face to change things.
Our Referee's are not trained to make judgement calls as to how the temperature of the water will affect a person. Only our EMT trained recuse personel have that training and how many times do they make the call?

My responses, right or wrong.

Brian

[dholt]

Ed,

Curious as to your stance on the proposal to reduce the minimum number of races for National High Point from 15 to 12.

I understand you abstained from breaking the tie.

Your thoughts?


D.

[Big Don]

HOC points based on participation.
Bottom line is there is no way I could vote for it, based on the simple fact that there is probably no better competition then BSR & BSH. (Don’t try proving me wrong; it’s just a point) I was not willing to handicap those drivers. Numbers are lower but that does not make the competition is easier. These are two very competitive classes in my opinion. May find this hard to believe but I stop whatever I’m doing when BSR goes on the water, even if it’s eating. (Just trying to add some humor) Love watching Holt, Hearn, Hagerl 1, Hagerl 2, Scheffler, Hemp, Ludwig Anderson, Hemp, Trolian, Jess… go flying into the first turn with about 20 feet separating them at local races. Now throw in Difebo, Nuccio, Kench…at the Nationals, WOW!

Cold Water racing.
No brainier to me also. No rule needed. If it that cold the race should stop. If our Race Chairman & Referees can’t make that decision on the judge’s stand they should not be on the race committee. If they refuse to stop the race, it would only happen once. Driver in the turn boats throw the flag. That does not mean the driver is hurt. Pick them up run them to the shore. If anyone questions it drive over to the judges stand and thank them for their hospitality and ask them to find another turn judge. I bet they don’t get to many volunteers after that.

[BP125V]

Brian,

You did accomplish something, you got me to think about racing in cold water in a different light. I've raced in it plenty of times and 2nd Ed's comments about Burlington! Can't say I remember ever seeing a red flag due to cold water though, I hope this will change. As stated in an earlier post, it was discussed and not dismissed out of hand. It was a lack of understanding of the liability issues that caused me not to make a motion. The example of Joe Racer protesting the red flag were my own thoughts on the subject and maybe were'nt the best example.

I appreciate your willingness to submit a proposal to your commissioners. But in the future I strongly suggest that you send it to all commissioners several weeks before the meeting. Here is why: The agenda is a mile long and there is a ton of ground to cover and at times things happen pretty fast. If the idea is sound and the commissioners have had a chance to think it through before a vote comes up it stands a much better chance of passing. The last thing you want to do as a commissioner is pass a rule and find out after the fact that you did not think thru all of the consequences.

Bill

[18W]

I'm with Don, not just because he spelled my name twice. I invite anyone to participate in bsr in our area. Now take that statement and change the class and area of the country, and it will apply to almost everywhere . Good decision on there part not to change a thing there.
davey

[WebinfoAPBA]

For anyone interested,

The Junior Class committee co-chairman, Mark Wheeler, has submitted the list of J Class rule changes from the annual meeting to the APBA website:

Visit:
http://www.apba-racing.com/News.php

[hydroracer25]

Brian,

Although I like the NAC plaque, I don't think its fair to award bonus points. This is a race that is bidded for and as I understand decided upon by Stan Fitts (or committee) not the category. I also understand it is awarded by a "first come first serve" process (I may be wrong). I could be possible that say Region 6 gets the Nationals, NAC (for a class(es)) and of course their Divisionals. This is 3 bonun points races that can be awarded for one region, which I feel doesn't allow everyone the same opportunity.

Secondly, not every class get a NAC awarded, so some classe will have an opportunity to garner more points that the others. Not really a big deal except when running for a Menzies, Waldman, Kalb....award.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Mark

[Brian10s]

Ok, where do I start . . .
1st Ed, you are right, it is the responsibility of the Referee's to maintain a safe racing environment. Now, who is responsible for making sure that each Referee is trained/ has the rules or guidelines to ensure safety to the best of his/her ability? If memory serves me, there is nothing in the rule book or on the Ref test or anywhere describing the effects of hypothermia and cold water. Who is responsible for providing our Ref's (who do a great job - this is not a bash on them but hopefully an eye opener) have all the info to do the job requested of them? And finally, if, in a Ref's judgement the cold water is no big deal and getting the show in takes precedent, what does "floating Bob" racer do besides not signal?

To Bill,
No your thoughts on "outfront" Joe were accurate and unfortunately are where most of our thinking comes from. It happens to the majority of us. And as for the proposal going to the whole Commission, well you may be right about that. These were my first attempts and I was under the impression that send to yours (commissioners) and they would forward to all with comments or whatever and vise versa. That way the whole commission would get all before hand. In the future, I will try and make sure the whole commission has the proposal and can ask questions/ clarifications before hand. I am not bashing the commissioners. They have volunteered to spend a nice chuck of change and several days of vacation to try and make racing better for the whole. Until I have walked in your shoes, I can not/ will not bash the process. Sometimes you win and sometimes you regroup and try again.

Mark,
While I agree with you that this could happen as the program stands, there are oppurtunities to change the program and even out the system. By increasing the points of NAC, you have increased it value and by doing such, it could be awarded opposite to the Nationals each year. It would give those not going to the Nationals, something extra in their area. The NAC championship would start to mean something and maybe start to rank up there with WinterNationals. Why can't there be 3 championships? And, I'm not sure why every class can't get a NAC. Is there something in the rules that only certain classes qualify? That's one I had not heard about. I know that only certain classes are bid on because it may be cost prohibitive to do all but not that they are only awarded to X number of classes.
But the NAC proposal wasn't that big a deal. It was based on conversations You, Dean and I had at Whitney Point after you both won and did not receive any additional points for it. You 2 won it and also major point awards, if you 2 are against it, then so be it. I just thought it was unfair to the NAC and the club that spends extra to hold it.


Anyway, that my story and I'm sticking to it.

Brian

[jsilvestri]

Brian,
While I agree with you that winning a NAC is a great thing, I won one in the past, I don't believe it should be worth extra points. I have nothing against NAC, I'm looking at the whole picture. When there are several championships / double points races / etc... they begin to water down the importance or significance of each other. Look at drag racing, every race I watch on tv is some sort of championship race. They have taken the term "championship" and used it so much that its watered down. Sometimes to much is a bad thing. Just my opinion.

[Brian10s]

Joe,
Great point. To counter that thought, why have double point for Divisionals? If you are worried about watering down the point system, then your should be taking away all the double points for Divisionals and make then just a Nationals qualifier.
You are using the word "championship" and the significance of points together. The point structure is already water down, all I was saying was to increase the importance of NAC.
It already exists, it is just not that big of a deal to Stock right now. Without adding points, it will never be anything other than a nice plaque on the wall.

Brian

[CSR4C]

In 1978 the NW divisionals were held near Anchorage Alaska. The first thing we noticed was all the Alaska drivers were wearing wet suits. The water was cold, like testing in region 10 in the early spring. Anytime a driver went in the water they stopped the heat.

[jsilvestri]

Brian,
I agree with you on all points.

[dholt]

I won't beat a dead horse on the High Points/HOC issue. This is my final word.

I can't argue the competitiveness of certain classes at certain races. That is the truth.

But drawn out over an entire season, is it not reasonable to conclude that competing against 80-90 or 100 drivers for high point is tougher than beating 20-30? Especially if you routinely compete in a class with 4-6 drivers as opposed to 12 or more. You're guaranteed a higher finish and more points.

If how many guys you beat wasn't important, then why are there criteria for the Nationals, Divisionals and Winter Nationals when it comes to handing out HOC points?


Dana

[DeanFHobart]

To CSH12M Dean,

Thank you very much for the summary.

See you at the races.

Dean Hobart:D :cool:

[bill boyes]

Originally posted by CSR4C
In 1978 the NW divisionals were held near Anchorage Alaska. The first thing we noticed was all the Alaska drivers were wearing wet suits. The water was cold, like testing in region 10 in the early spring. Anytime a driver went in the water they stopped the heat. we will discuss cold water races at our region meeting this weekend. a swimming pool thermomator will work just fine. our chief scorer will have it in her kit.

[Dave M]

Originally posted by CSH12M
As usual Dave you fly off the handle without waiting to hear any explanation.

Thanks,
Dean

I heard all I needed to, and took the common sense approach instead of the Politcally correct sene approach. I prefer common sense approaches. You should try it more often. But don't fly off the handle on something your believe in, that might get some folks panties more in a bunch they they already are........

[fitsracing]

Originally posted by dholt
I won't beat a dead horse on the High Points/HOC issue. This is my final word.

I can't argue the competitiveness of certain classes at certain races. That is the truth.

But drawn out over an entire season, is it not reasonable to conclude that competing against 80-90 or 100 drivers for high point is tougher than beating 20-30? Especially if you routinely compete in a class with 4-6 drivers as opposed to 12 or more. You're guaranteed a higher finish and more points.

If how many guys you beat wasn't important, then why are there criteria for the Nationals, Divisionals and Winter Nationals when it comes to handing out HOC points?


Dana


Interesting point, but if you look at APBA high points for each class how many racers are you truly competing against?

Lets look
total 10races 15races 12races
ASR 83 27 (56) 14 17
CSR 110 21 (89) 9 14
ASH 106 27 (79) 11 18
CSH 130 37 (93) 15 30
20SSH 108 27 (81) 15 22

(The numbers in brackets are the racers who have less than ten races and for this example are being considered not a factor toward high points or high average)

It appears that even in the largest classes ie. CSH 130 racers only 37 were scored for 10 races or more, of the 130 only 15 were scored for 15 races or more and only 30 were scored for 12 races or more.

For high points , I don't think you are truly competing against the total population of the class nor is a sliding scale needed.

[dholt]

I wanted to stop this topic, but half the story has just been posted.

How about posting the numbers of the other classes.

Here are the number of drivers who competed in 15 or more races in:

BSR- 1 of 26
DSR- 0 of 10
25SSR- 2 of 54
BSH- 0 of 29
DSH- 5 of 37
25SSH- 3 of 38
45SST- 1 of 21

Still, much lower than the class stats stated in the previous post.

Are ANY Stock classes worthy of 5 HOC points for such paltry participation for High Points?

Should the minimum number be reduced to 12 races? That proposal was shot down by the Commission on a close vote, so apparently not.

Current situation just doesn't seem to fly with common sense.

[14-H]

I didn't have a belief either way. I wasn't convinced that it would increase participation... so I didn't vote to break the tie.

[14-H]

Annual Meetings are more that just about rule changes. Even rules that are proposed but rejected allow all areas of the country to see what issues face the rest in running races. It's nice to see that, due to the 10-S proposal (Brian: all commissioners had a copy of all the info you gave me), cold water is an issue that the commissioners have taken back to the Regions to discuss.

Another cool idea: Tony Perman from Region 10 reported that his club had a race that had locals going to the city officials complaining about the boat races and they were under pressure to save the race. At the driver's meeting, slips of paper which read something like "this money being spent courtesy of the boat races on ______ lake; please support us as we have supported you" were given to the drivers. Over the weekend, drivers paid all of their bills with these slips of paper being handed out. Result: race saved. The community began to see how much money the races brought in.

These and other cool ideas were discussed at the SO Annual Meeting.

[Brian10s]

Just a clairification,

I thought of something last night, I have been giving the Stock Commission a hard time over the cold water deal and it was for the most part undeserved. I don't mean that that didn't have a chance to review and act on it (but as Dean, Bill and Ed have said, they are going to do something to inform Ref's and others) but that they weren't the only ones.

I submitted this exact proposal to all "Kneeldown" Commissions and the Safety Commission. So this proposal was reveiwed by Mod, Pro, J and safety as well as stock, and went down in flames in all Categories.

The Stock Commission has had to shoulder an unfair amount of blaim just because certain memebers are vocal on this site and are willing to express their opinions and back up their decisions.

So I guess I have to go back to basics and start again for next year.
Hope to see all my Commission members at Franklin in May.

Brian

[CSH12M]

Thanks Brian,

I respect your ideas and more importatly your approach to trying to make change.

I wish more racers thought and acted as you do. Lord knows we all will never agree (I could of strangled Ed on a few items) but we need to respect and work within the process.

Later,
Dean

[jsilvestri]

Does anyone know if there was any discussion of changing the requirements for boat size, relative to engine, in the 25ssR class? Ed had mentioned that he might see if the model 80 could be run on a smaller boat.

I have my old BSR I'd love to try my model 80 on, if possible.

[CSH12M]

25SSR was talked about at length Joe, with several different motions all of which failed. I do not recall though speaking specifically about the 80 on a smaller boat. So to answer your question....no I do not think that particular idea was mentioned.

Thanks,
Dean

[jsilvestri]

Dean,
Thanks for the info. And, Thanks to all those who have invested their time to keeping APBA going.

[mike ross]

Joe there were quite a few items that were presented all of which were to slow the Yamato down. I voiced my thoughts to express the way I think most of the Yamato drivers felt. I think this helped in NOT seeing a lower height restriction or a smaller restrictor plate. The Yamato's have kept this class alive and I thought we should not have to change to much. As it is we run overweight, have very little excelleration in comparison to the Merc and Hot Rod. I stated if we had some of the old drivers and there rigs running today( Dewald, Austin, Runne, Bowman,ect) we would maybe be looking at how to make the Yamatos go faster. We have a problem with the boat size differance and how it relates to the way the race course gets chopped up. Most of the nationals coarses are set to favor the turn fin boats. This year should be interesting as the Brinkman camp is coming out with a 11ft turn fin Merc and I here Brian Rodes is working on something. We have talked to Butterfield and he seems to be excited as we went testing together at the end of the year and he's going faster than we are by a couple miles an hour with way more excelleration. Hope Dewey can get to the corner first or it's all over. Anyway can't wait to get to the lake with our new Runne Craft. It looks great. SEE YA Mike

[18W]

I was sledding with Brian this weekend. Rumor mill has him turning out a new 25 this year. He just finished building a desk. Is waiting for some "paperwork" to be finalized before starting on it.

[Steve Warnock]

Spud Lite

I thought Brian was done with the paper work thang?!

Anyways, any thoughts of coming down for the Daytoner 500 at the Yester Years.
Schmer and I got reservations in. Heard about the sledding deal from Jo Jo Z last nite at the BSOA meeting.

To All,
As far as Annual meetings, each member should at least experience putting one on during their life as an APBA member. It is like putting on a Nationals. You need to experinence that also. Yes it is work, but it is APBA's Annual requirement to make change.

We personally had a blast with the Milwaukee meeting as one of the worker beee's. I wasn't able to give my view's the way I would of like to in the past, but there was a higher duty to get the event properly coordinated and completed.

As Ed and others have pointed out, APBA is US. If you want something done or accomplished, DO IT! Don't sit here and hide behind your hidden words.

See ya in the first turn!

64*W

[CSH12M]

Thanks 64W you definetely define what this sport is all about, and do a great job of trying to teach that philosiphy to new people and remind us old ones when we forget.

Later,
12M

[18W]

WARBY-

Not gonna make it. CJ Mardi Gras/ Bday festival that weekend. Go #2

[18W]

WARBY-

Not gonna make it. CJ Mardi Gras/ Bday festival that weekend. Go #2. Feb 10 I believe Brian said is the magic day.

[14-H]

Originally posted by CSH12M
(I could of strangled Ed on a few items)
Later,
Dean

Likewise, I'm sure. No HOC points, EVER for 1/2 mile records!!!!