Those Tricky Runabouts

[dholt]

Seems like a good time for a new thread. Nothing beats beach racing while at work.

Reading lots of opinions about runabouts lately. What to do with 25SSR, side fins vs. roll ups, etc...

Floated this idea out on the 'A' Class Solutions thread, where it didn't really belong. So how about this for 25SSR.

Eliminate the 15ci Hot Rod from BSR.

Rename 25SSR as BSR.

Allow the 20ci Hot Rod. (15ci owners, all you need is a carb, block and pistons to convert). Also, allow the Y80, 102 and 302 and the Merc 25XS.

Restrict the 102 and 302 a bit more to make more competitive with the Hot Rod and 25XS. It's still a bit fast on top end right now. Also, get the 102/302 on a smaller boat...so it's not tearing up the water so much as currently.

Allow the Y80 to run at whatever height makes it competitive.

Now, you have 5 legal engines in one class, running on boats that are relatively the same size. All running in the 62-64 mph range on a 395 pound rig...which is what BSR was, and is supposed to be.

As for side fins vs. flat turners...the cat is already out of the bag. A runabout should roll up...that's a key difference between it and a hydro. Makes for a much more fun, and challenging, ride. But too late to change what's out there.

As for the outraged Hot Rod 15 owners, of which I have been one for 14 years, which is better? Owning fine equipment that you rarely get to use or making a change and getting the chance to actually race it consistently?

Now, could the Hot Rod 15 be competitive in this "new" BSR? It's running about 57-58mph now. Doubt there is 4-5mph to be found.

Let the discussion begin.

D.

[jsilvestri]

side fins,
Easier said than done when it comes to rolling up a CSR. I've done it with two different boats and prefer the side fin. Its faster and doesn't beat you up as fast. You still have to work it and drive it like any other runabout down the straight-aways. As far as the smaller runabouts, rolling those boats up doesn't beat you up as much.

Hot Rods are a great ride on a runabout, but as Dana mentioned, you can't race them all the time, depending on the region you race in. And, availability of parts is really scarce! How about investing time, money and efforts for finding a new engine for that class. I'd be in favor of the universal tower idea for the class.

[17W]

I am w/you Dana, smaller boats & putting it up on the chine. Next question what size restrictor for the 102/302 ? How much of a smaller boat ?

Man, I wish I knew where my Dad's old 20SSR rig went when it sold in 1985. I believe a fella from Michigan bought it when he was in NY working @ 9 Mile Nuclear Powerplant. (117-N) was the # on it when it sold.

Brent 17W

[CSR4C]

I have perfer rolling up a runabout. That is half the fun of a runabout. The problem is there are too many boats built that can't roll up and drivers like Daren Gorehring that don't know how to do it.
Darrell
ps I love turning right also.

[dholt]

Some may say a reason CSR has grown so much is the advent of the side fin. That is probably a valid reason. Many guys wouldn't be able to drive them (roll them up) without one.

It's a tough ride, no doubt. I've tested one...never raced. Guys that run it well...you deserve much credit.

But really, many, many drivers are in CSR that don't belong there. Back in the day, you had to be pretty good size to run CSR. If you weren't, you ran BSR. For the last 10 years, the lack of a "true" BSR class has sent guys into CSR that shouldn't be there.

What's the weight in CSR? 470 or something like that?

A 185lb. guy running that and trying to roll up would be far from fun.

Put that 185lb guy in a BSR and roll it up. He'd never stop smiling.

Everyone has a preference. The real issue is to get a low 60's mph runabout class without running a barge of a boat.

D.

[BROCCOLI]

Dana, You could roll s CSR quite easily. A person doesn't have to weigh a lot in order to roll up a big boat. Erica, Travis Pond, and Gregory Lyons have all managed quite well.
Perhaps, we should lower the minimum weight of CSR by 25 or thirty pounds.

See you in the corner,
Craig

[dholt]

Now that's what I like, a voice of experience chiming in.

What do you say, Craig...let's do away with all those silly side fins!

The lone CSR ride I took testing was actually in one of your boats. Bill Breaux bought it from Don Jones.

Couldn't get the hop out of it on the straightaways. This was early 90's.

Anyway, which is easier. CSR roll up or CSR flat turner?

D.

[18W]

They were made to be ROLLED UP!!!!! Then the da***d hydro guys decided they wanted more water time. Wait a second, my Dad had the hydrobout, I need to have a quick chat with him about his shady past!

Dana, I agree 100% with Broc, you can roll up a CSR. I ran a DMR this year and rolled it up. Would have won the heat with a stock 44xs untill an electrical problem arose. Nonetheless, If I can do it, you should be able to. I only weigh 165.
Davey

[jsilvestri]

Bottom line, I'll be passing you on either the inside or the outside through the corner if your rolling up your CSR. CORNER SPEED!!!

[GOOBER]

I have done both rolled up and side fin, when I ran ASR & BSR I did not even know there was a chicken fin!!! now that I have gotten a little or alot heavier I have been running CSR,CMR for the past 7 or 8 years. I have to admit though the roll ups were more fun, and what a rush it is to go in the corner especially if craig bowman is on your inside and to be able to look over and see all the nice sanding work the he has done to the bottom of the boat, now that it sweet!!!!!!!!!
Kevin Harrell

[David_L6]

Originally posted by dholt


As for side fins vs. flat turners... A runabout should roll up...that's a key difference between it and a hydro. Makes for a much more fun, and challenging, ride.

D.

I started to post a reply to this thread early this morning (would have been the first reply), but decided that I'd better just stay out of this since I no longer have a runabout. After reading what has been posted though...

I sure do like to see that there are others out there that think a runabout's fin is supposed to be in the center of the bottom and not out on the side!

I'll rule out the drivers point of view as best I can here...

There's nothing like watching a driver that knows how to drive a roll up boat drive. It doesn't have to be a small motor class either. If you've never seen Ralph Cook drive D/E/SE runabout or Kevin McAfee drive D/E runabout, you are in for a treat when/if you do get the chance. Those two guys are the best currently active racers I know of at driving a roll up runabout and I put either of them right up there with the best I've ever seen.

[PopPop]

It's the finish line that matters!

[mercguy]

Originally posted by jsilvestri
Bottom line, I'll be passing you on either the inside or the outside through the corner if your rolling up your CSR. CORNER SPEED!!!

I will join you, when we are passing them "roll up" runabouts in the turns! All that matters is who finishes first, not where the **** fin is placed. ..........

and Darrell, I might even put a side fin on my Champion this season......

[mercguy]

Originally posted by 18W
They were made to be ROLLED UP!!!!! Then the da***d hydro guys decided they wanted more water time. Wait a second, my Dad had the hydrobout, I need to have a quick chat with him about his shady past!

Dana, I agree 100% with Broc, you can roll up a CSR. I ran a DMR this year and rolled it up. Would have won the heat with a stock 44xs untill an electrical problem arose. Nonetheless, If I can do it, you should be able to. I only weigh 165.
Davey


OK Davey bring out a "roll up" CSR and I will beat ya.......with my "flat turner".............:D :D

[Gun Jumper]

Before getting in for my first Broc CSR ride, Craig made it pretty cut and dry. Think of yourself in a big cardboard box on the floor, now make it move foward. More pulling the boat along rather then pushing. I'm 150lbs. soaking wet and I have successfully rolled up a Broc CSR and found that balance point in the straights. I will give it to you though Mr. Silvestri- there's nothing like keeping those r's up with a chicken fin. Roll up or side fin- we're in the best sport there is!
Greg Lyons

[modracer7b]

>>>>>>>>>I will join you, when we are passing them "roll up" runabouts in the turns! All that matters is who finishes first, not where the **** fin is placed. ..........<<<<<<<<

In 1966 Prineville Nationals, I flat turned my Clarkraft roll-up runabout with no fins. Back then it was known as outside chining and was considered an art. Anyway, I blew the start big time, hit the first turn in twelfth and proceeded to pass 10 of the 11 boats in front of me going around the outside and accellerated past the 11th boat as I came off the corner to go from last to first in the first turn around the outside. I used to have to come out of the turn with the nose pointed toward the inside of the course and then straighten the boat out when it lined up with the next corner. I could square turn or half-roll that boat and touch the buoys every time, but I sure did like outside chining it.
- Bill Rosado

[C Stock Racer]

I have always used a side fin on my csr and they work well on a long course if the water is smooth. If I hit rough water in a turn and pop the fin out of the water once it hooks up again I usualy go swimming. Darren they were calling me flipper before you. I have seen seen several in region 11 that are chine turners and they always do well in the turns. My new boat is a chine turner . I can't wait to test it.


George Scott 110C

[CSR4C]

Daren,
See how you do with your Z-Craft on the Salt Springs marathon course.

Darrell

[mercguy]

Originally posted by CSR4C
Daren,
See how you do with your Z-Craft on the Salt Springs marathon course.

Darrell

not sure I will be doing too many marathons this year, since I will be racing (3) different classes full time, plus having my brother racing CSH this year also. If I do decide to run in the marathons, I will bring along the Champion............

[mercguy]

Originally posted by C Stock Racer
I have always used a side fin on my csr and they work well on a long course if the water is smooth. If I hit rough water in a turn and pop the fin out of the water once it hooks up again I usualy go swimming. Darren they were calling me flipper before you. I have seen seen several in region 11 that are chine turners and they always do well in the turns. My new boat is a chine turner . I can't wait to test it.


George Scott 110C

hey George, hope to see ya at Bakersfield with your new CSR. I have a new one too.......

[David_L6]

Originally posted by modracer7b
>>>>>>>>>I will join you, when we are passing them "roll up" runabouts in the turns! All that matters is who finishes first, not where the **** fin is placed. ..........<<<<<<<<

In 1966 Prineville Nationals, I flat turned my Clarkraft roll-up runabout with no fins. Back then it was known as outside chining and was considered an art. Anyway, I blew the start big time, hit the first turn in twelfth and proceeded to pass 10 of the 11 boats in front of me going around the outside and accellerated past the 11th boat as I came off the corner to go from last to first in the first turn around the outside. I used to have to come out of the turn with the nose pointed toward the inside of the course and then straighten the boat out when it lined up with the next corner. I could square turn or half-roll that boat and touch the buoys every time, but I sure did like outside chining it.
- Bill Rosado

Mr. Rosado,

I did almost the same thing (at the same lake!) in my C mod Desilva. I wasn't quite as far back as you and didn't make up quite as much ground, but everything else describes what I did to a tee. :cool: I went in in about 7th and came out 2nd to Tab Buford (I never did beat him if his motor was running right. And it usually was.)

I just sat on the gas tank and kept it nailed. I have a video of that race, but you can't see much other than my helmet going behind the spray of the other boats then coming out of it ahead of them.

David Woodell

[modracer7b]

David, We had a film of that race and the same as you, all you could see was the top of my helmet going around the sprays. One difference though, the DeSilva runabouts have a very forgiving outside chine. The old Clarkrafts had a roll-up chine angle on the outside chine and to flat turn it you had to stay in the straightaway tuck position and lean to the outside of the boat to drive the chine in. Once set, it had to be held smooth and flat because if it popped, it would roll over. Back then, there were only a handful of us across the country that could flat turn those hard chine boats. We didn't have double chines on them back then. That is why it was considered an art to be able to do it.

- Bill Rosado

p.s. - In those younger days, I could roll them up with the best of them. I ran against the likes of Maloof, Hire, Hedlunds, Stippich, Giles, McCabe, Hammond, McPeek, Christy to name a few and won my share, but in the last several years, the flat turner had allowed this old beat up body of mine to be able to run the runabouts for a nostalgic second time. I would have had to retire much sooner if I had to run the rollups with this old body.
Also, did you mean Prineville, Oregon?

[David_L6]

Originally posted by modracer7b

Also, did you mean Prineville, Oregon?

No. I meant Pineville, Louisiana.

[jsilvestri]

Your right Greg, this is a great sport we are involved in, I love it. Now, why aren't there more guys racing runabouts, especially if they are so easy to drive? When I look around at the races I go to, there are usually more hydro entries than runabout entries. Us runabout drivers need more guys to start racing runabouts whether it be roll-up or side fin. Come join the fun!

[Tim Weber]

I do miss the roll up days too! I remember spending a lot of time
learning a boat. When I say learning a boat, every roll up boat I ever drove really had their own quirky tendencies in the corners. Some I could chine out of a corner, some I couldn't etc.

I have found the side fin boats really easy to drive. They are not near as demanding as the old school boats.

I give Craig Bowman credit in his unwavering support of the old ways even though its not as fast around the course.

It was quite a sight watching a full field of CSR or DSR's battling through the corners in the old days.

Tim

[17W]

Dana suggested that we run a combo of engines in 25SSR & we roll'em up. (as the current BSR class does) I do not recall him saying anything about doing away w/sidefins in CSR. I too enjoy rolling up in the corner, but have seen the light & have a brand new Flat Turning Racecraft.

Brent 17W
:D

[Haüenstein]

Has anyone tried putting sponsons and airtraps on a runabout? It might be faster and easier to drive that way.

Michael Hauenstein
Guilty of Flat-Turning

[dholt]

Ok, it's a tie game at the half.

Roll Ups- 10
Side Fins- 10

I never suggested making the 25SSR class "roll up" only. It would be nice, though.

If the boats were roughly all in the same size (current 25XS boats), you'd probably not want to run a side fin. Without the added power to slide through the turn, a roll up boat (like ASR now) can have a distinct advantage in turning.

As Joe Sly stated earlier, runabouts have become much easier to drive the past 15 years, both Roll up and side fin.

So why the big disparity between numbers of hydro drivers and runabout?

I offer that it's still much more physically demanding...and our country as a whole has become soft. New guys take the easier ride. So do older guys.

Who will the last runabout racer left standing??!!!!


D.

[nightmoves]

I have driven a few rollups in my day and also a few side fins in asr and had alot more fun in the roll up the the flat turner. I got out of ASR due to personal reasons and wanted to get into another class of runabouts but didnt like what was there. BSR is dead in the NE and I refuse to buy a Hotrod due to there nature, and CSR I have to put 55 lbs of lead in it to make weight. I would like to see a new B motor for a small boat in the 10ft range for a more exciting ride for a small driver that is a roll up. It seems to me that since the side fin boats have been growing there have been more pins added to the turns as well.....
just an observation

nightmoves

[Tim Weber]

Weight? Just run a heavier boat!

Before I matured from my formaly svelt figure I ran DSR in the 80's and weighed 165 pounds. My boat weighed about 200 pounds and I still had to add 15 pounds of lead. I won lots of races with it too!

My new CSR is like a kite and I have to add weight and I am now 190 pounds. At least with lead you can put the weight where you want.

Tim

[BROCCOLI]

Dana et al.
It is true that we see more hydros than runabouts at most races, more in the pits, that is. In the northeast, we typically schedule
9 to 11 hydro classes and two or three runabout classes. At most of our races we have more boats in CSR than any other class. Asr usually has fairly full fiel;ds and 25ssr has been growing. I expect that 25ssr may soon be the northeast's largest class (unless we do something to discourage the restricted Csr's.

Roll em'

In the early 1970's I watched Ernie Dawe drive a roll-up CSH (actually a tunnel) in Bakersfield. When he put it on the chine, the other Csh's really scattered.

[Dave M]

Having run a roller for 7 years, I can say it was fun. One major disadvantage I notice now a days is that the flat turners have this big ol hole to drive through when a roller is in front of it.

Maybe there should be Runabout Roller class and Hydrobout classes ? (that should get some rebuttal)

Craig, I rememebr seeing you roll at Lockhaven this last season....hehehehehhee, along with two others different lap, same place...... was it the Lockhaven Monstor that came up and rolled y'all accross the water... :D :D I was laughing so hard at seeing three runabouts go over in the same spot on each lap... good thing the current swept them away before the field came back down. Downright mean water right there !! :D

[reed28n]

Guys,
The root of the thread was with regard to the 25ssr class,
Dana makes a good point, 15ss owners have a place to race. A Mod , if you want to get into the 25 class to stay a stocker get the parts to change to a 20 cu in.

That makes room for a B motor that doesn't have to compete with the 15 hot rod, which will allow drivers to let themselves go a different speed and still compete with everyone. I think that way we will have a much better chance of getting a " STOCK" motor. The problem we have finding a B Motor now is the 60 MPH plateau out of the box. Believe me I would race the 15 hot rod every week if there were enough. But I want to race in full fields of boats.

(Caution Repeated information)
Drivers have to promote their classes, the 25 and A mod gives everyone a place to go and make room for new equipment.

Side fin, no side fin, roll up, flat turn, hydro, 40 MPH or 70 MPH
"I just want to race" . The great thing about the CSR class is there are so many equally fast boats, leave the CSR (weight, rules, motors) as it is, let's look at other classes.

Scott Reed
Roll up Runabout turn coat

[Racer 30 F]

Broccoli;
I have a boat that you built several years ago. Originally I think you built it for Bob Laws. When I got it, it was named High Hopes and the # was 24-S. It was involved in a trailer accident and my friend Carl Staron and I repaired it.I run a Staron Hot Rod 15 on it. Now I just have to learn how to turn it like Bob could. He gave me a few tips but there's no substitute for cockpit time. I'm hoping to get the hang of it but it's a lot different than the Speed Liner I last ran back in the 50's. I have 3 hydros and now the runabout and I'd hate to give up either type. I just love to race.

[mercguy]

Originally posted by BROCCOLI
Dana et al.
It is true that we see more hydros than runabouts at most races, more in the pits, that is. In the northeast, we typically schedule
9 to 11 hydro classes and two or three runabout classes. At most of our races we have more boats in CSR than any other class. Asr usually has fairly full fiel;ds and 25ssr has been growing. I expect that 25ssr may soon be the northeast's largest class (unless we do something to discourage the restricted Csr's.

Roll em'

In the early 1970's I watched Ernie Dawe drive a roll-up CSH (actually a tunnel) in Bakersfield. When he put it on the chine, the other Csh's really scattered.

Craig, I wonder why Ernie now builds "flat turning" runabouts? He told me awhile back, when looking at my Champion BU with center fin...........put the fin where it belongs.........on the side! Also, Frank Zorkin's are "flat turners" also. So, why did both of these GREAT roll up runabout drivers start building "flat turners"????? I know why..........

[CSR4C]

It's very simple - more corner speed. But it takes half the fun out of running a runabout.
Darrell

[hydroplay]

I can speak with some authority on the subject of side fins for runabouts. The original concept of side fins was based on the performance of Rosado's runabout as well as Billy Hutchen's Drake runabout. Both were awsomely fast in the corners compared to their competition, but both had bad habits if everything didn't go just right. The characteristic both boats had was that when they were running well, they cornered with the bow high and had minimum wetted surface for less drag. The first side fins experiments were done on an ordinary SeaJay CSR to keep the boat flat and minimize the drag when turning. It had nothing to do with ease of driving or anything else besides simply getting to the finish line first. In the early days, it was a huge advantage as the side fin boats had free reign on the outside but now that they're are fairly common, that advantage has diminished as other boats want that space. In some ways, Bowman now has some advantage as fewer guys compete with him for the inside so he generally has more freedom than before.

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Side fins.. no side fins.... who cares as long as you race.
I wish I had a pic of the Region 7 bunch at Dayton in the 80's. They took a runabout and flipped it upside down on the shore and sat a hydro directly on top of it so the bottoms were against each other. They stood there and toasted the birth of a hydrobout ie. (since they were mating)!
Ask your family Davey, think they were the ring leaders that night.
Dave M... just what we need, more classes! ... very funny!
Dana... great thread and good ideas... nice to see comments that are far from selfish.
Here's my opinion and you can take it or leave it guys...
If you haven't finished Indian River, then you are not a runabout driver... just a runabout rider!!!
p.s. for those of you in the know, wouldn't it be fun to see a side turner coming back thru Devils Elbow?! OUCH!:D

[mercguy]

picture from last year's Nationals................


Darrell, you say with the side fin it takes the fun out of driving a runabout? I actually enjoy it more with the side fin, otherwise I would have stayed with hydros (maybe I should have anyways!:D :D ).

[mercguy]

these guys don't have them! Very impressive indeed!!!!

[modracer7b]

>>>>>>>It's very simple - more corner speed. But it takes half the fun out of running a runabout.<<<<<<<<<<

I totally disagree. I started in the days of the roll-ups. I hard rolled them with the best. I developed the half-roll in the East to be able to go around the hard rollers and then went on to outside chining the old hard chine roll-ups. There were many races where I used all three methods in a single heat to get by different drivers and exploit their weaknesses. I ran with center fins, chine fins and no fins. When I came back to racing and started with the flat-turners with the side fin, I got the best rides that I had ever gotten in a runabout and it takes another set of skills to be able to successfully flat turn in different water conditions. Yes, just about anybody can flat turn on a still day with smooth water, but try doing it on rough water with a stiff wind trying to blow you off the corner. In those conditions, rolling it up is the easy way out. Roll-up runabouts are not "Real Runabouts". Any flat bottom boat without sponsons is a "Real Runabout".

Maybe the flat-turner guys should push to ban roll-up runabouts from classes. Seems like I keep seeing more flat-turners and fewer roll-ups these days. - Bill Rosado

[mercguy]

Originally posted by modracer7b
>>>>>>>It's very simple - more corner speed. But it takes half the fun out of running a runabout.<<<<<<<<<<

I totally disagree. I started in the days of the roll-ups. I hard rolled them with the best. I developed the half-roll in the East to be able to go around the hard rollers and then went on to outside chining the old hard chine roll-ups. There were many races where I used all three methods in a single heat to get by different drivers and exploit their weaknesses. I ran with center fins, chine fins and no fins. When I came back to racing and started with the flat-turners with the side fin, I got the best rides that I had ever gotten in a runabout and it takes another set of skills to be able to successfully flat turn in different water conditions. Yes, just about anybody can flat turn on a still day with smooth water, but try doing it on rough water with a stiff wind trying to blow you off the corner. In those conditions, rolling it up is the easy way out. Roll-up runabouts are not "Real Runabouts". Any flat bottom boat without sponsons is a "Real Runabout".



Maybe the flat-turner guys should push to ban roll-up runabouts from classes. Seems like I keep seeing more flat-turners and fewer roll-ups these days. - Bill Rosado

I bet that would have been awesome to watch Bill! Oh boy, I can hear it now.......flat turners banning roll up's!!

[modracer7b]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oh boy, I can hear it now.......flat turners banning roll up's!!<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yeah, those roll-ups just get in the way. It never failed to amaze me when I was running my FAR hydrobout, that some idiot roll-up would actually go outside of me and then want to roll-it-up from the shoreline across my bow. - Bill Rosado