Why the Sutherland Plan Won't Work

[14-H]

I just returned home from the APBA Annual Meeting. The so-called "Sutherland Plan" was approved by the SORC. It will now go to the members for vote by ballot. Simply put, the Sutherland Plan effectively eliminates the current B Stock Classes and 25SS Hydro Class. It combines all other classes and makes 20SSH the new B Stock Hydro Class and Makes the 25SSR Class the new B Stock Runabout Class. (It is a little more complicated than this - I'm simplifying).

For the record, the vote was 6 to 5 in favor of the plan. Also, for the record, the chairman of the meeting has the ability to both break and make a tie. That means that I had the ability to vote "no". If I had voted "no", the vote would have been 6 to 6. That is not a majority so the matter would have failed. I chose not to do that so that the members could vote on the matter. Because it passed the SORC, it will now go to ballot.

Here is why I don't think the Sutherland Plan will work. The idea behind the plan is elimination of classes for either a shorter day or to funnel those members into the stronger classes. The reason this will not work is because the only club in the Country that runs a strictly-Stock, only, schedule is MHRA. All other clubs in the U.S. run Stock and some other category of racing. They have to or they will not have enough income to hold a race. If these classes are eliminated, the clubs will just run another category of racing and, most likely, that will be Mod. In other words, nothing will change except that we will drive our members to Mod. Additionally, MHRA which runs a Stock-only schedule only made money on 1 of its 5 races last year. Thus, if they cut 3 classes in their schedule, they are destined to lose more money. The only way to make this up is to do what the other clubs in the country do: run another category's classes. Likely, this will be the same people, running the same equipment, during the same time-schedule. They'll just be Mod entries instead of Stock entries.

Most importantly, however, how much sense does it make to cut BSR, BSH and 25SSH from APBA's class list when we have 8 Inboard classes that have fewer numbers, 14 PRO classes with fewer numbers, 12 OPC classes with fewer numbers and 5 Mod classes with fewer numbers? In other words, we are going to eliminate BSR, BSH and 25SSR as so-called "dead weight" in APBA racing. But we are going to keep 39 other classes in APBA that have fewer numbers.

In my line of thinking, that makes no sense.

:soapbox:

[14-H]

Here are the raw numbers: BSR, BSH and 25SSH get the axe. Here are their numbers for 2010:

BSR 25 members
BSH 27
25SSH 28

************
Inboard Classes with fewer numbers:

Grand National: 7
2.5 Liter Mod: 19
1 Liter: 25
1.5 Liter Stock 13
Cracker Box 16
Jersey S.Skiff 21
Super Stock 17
KRacing Run. 7
Grand Prix 18

*** Inboard has only 3 classes that have more participants than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: Nat'l Modified: 26, 5 Liter Hydro: 33, and 2.5 L Stock: 41

*************
OPC Classes with fewer numbers:

SST60: 24
SST150: 24
Sport C: 23
Super Sport: 8
Form V: 6
Champ boat: 15
Mod U: 9
SC Mar. 13
VP: 9
Mini GT 3
GT Pro: 9
Tri Hull: 16

**** OPC has only 2 classes with bigger numbers than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: SST-120: 38 and SST-45: 42

***********
PRO Classes with fewer numbers:

125R: 13
250R: 13
350R: 16
500R: 16
1100R: 10
CSerR: 19
CRaceR: 17
KPROH: 25
350H: 22
500H: 10
700H: 9
1100H: 12
175H: 21
CSerH: 14
CRaceH: 14

**** Pro has only two alky classes that have numbers greater than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are 125H: 34, and 250H, 28. (OSY-400 is Pro's biggest class. It has 72 members. But if C Stock Hydro were an Offshore class, it would be the largest class in that category too. I don't count OSY as a Pro class. That's for another thread, though).

************
Modified Classes with fewer numbers:

FAR: 24
AMR: 14
BMR: 16
CMR: 23
25MH: 10


**** Mod does the best of all the other categories with the greatest number of classes that exceed the numbers of BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They have 8. However, only 3 Mod classes exceed those numbers by greater than 20%

Here's the rest of the Mod classes:

DMR: 32
FER: 29
FAH: 27
AMH: 28
BMH: 29
- - - Classes that exceed by 20%
CMH: 58
DMH: 43
FEH: 55


The Bottom Line: We are going to give the axe to BSR, BSH and 25SSH but APBA will keep at least 41 other national classes in other categories that have participation numbers less than the Stock Classes we are proposing to cut.

:heyyou:

[Affholter66]

To the SO Chairman...HOOORAHHH for you...The way I look at it (as does My Brother Mike) is that our Pit would lose at least 4 heats of racing a weekend. I run 25SSR in Mike's CSR..use his motor (w/rest-plate) and WooHoo have a blast. If 25SSR goes so does MY $160 APBA and approx $400 (or more) in entry fees. To me (and I'll admit I'm being selfish) getting rid of classes means LOSING members, Thanks again to all who participated in the meetings and our SORC. I would also like to say I know Dean has put alot of work and thought into his proposal and that is appreciated as well (just don't agree with it). We in Region 6 are very lucky to be able to put on SO only programs..lets not screw it up! (If I have mis-interpreted how the reduction works I apologize, but the way I read proposal is that the "big boat" 25SSR (ie 102/302 w/restrictor) would be eliminated )

(I did kinda read it right..restricted 102/302 moves to CSR...there goes the sharing a boat..)

[CSH12M]

Well Ed, tell me how you really feel.

I will let our elected Chairman statements stand on their own.

I actually believe that we can right the ship!
I believe that we can save the SO Category.
I believe we can rebuild it back to where it once was or at least where it can stand on its own.
I believe that we can save local racing and should be able to host SO only events.
I believe we can build up our numbers within classes and make them fun to race and watch again!
I believe that Racer Schools work.
I believe that we can sell the sport even in down economies if we make the value proposition work.

I also believe if we do nothing, nothing will change and we will dwindle to a select few Races around the country.

I believe we should not give up! Your elected Chairman must think the Category will save itself. He must think that what we are doing is working. He must think that BSH is about to explode with new members. He must think that Mercury will save us with another Merc. challenge any day. He must think that some magical corporate sponsor will put $100K into our racing and allow us to continue. He must think he is "smart" enough to build the next 2stroke motor we need to race. He must think that it is OK that his Category cant hold a stand alone race. He must think that at the SO Nationals CSR should not have eliminations, and that BSR and BSH were not a farce as with more field fillers than "real" competitors.

Most importantly he must think that 2010 was a great season of racing and that 2011 will be even better.

I by no means am saying that class consolidation will save the category. What I am saying is.... It is a first step in the right direction and if we don't "try" shame on us, all of us.

Dean Sutherland
12M

I just returned home from the APBA Annual Meeting. The so-called "Sutherland Plan" was approved by the SORC. It will now go to the members for vote by ballot. Simply put, the Sutherland Plan effectively eliminates the current B Stock Classes and 25SS Hydro Class. It combines all other classes and makes 20SSH the new B Stock Hydro Class and Makes the 25SSR Class the new B Stock Runabout Class.

For the record, the vote was 6 to 5 in favor of the plan. Also, for the record, the chairman of the meeting has the ability to both break and make a tie. That means that I had the ability to vote "no". If I had voted "no", the vote would have been 6 to 6. That is not a majority so the matter would have failed. I chose not to do that so that the members could vote on the matter.

Here is why I don't think the Sutherland Plan will work. The idea behind the plan is elimination of classes for either a shorter day or to funnel those members into the stronger classes. The reason this will not work is because the only club in the Country that runs a strictly-Stock, only, schedule is MHRA. All other clubs in the U.S. run Stock and some other category of racing. They have to or they will not have enough income to hold a race. If these classes are eliminated, the clubs will just run another category of racing and, most likely, that will be Mod. In other words, nothing will change except that we will drive our members to Mod.

Most importantly, however, how much sense does it make to cut BSR, BSH and 25SSH from APBA's class list when we have 8 Inboard classes that have fewer numbers, 14 PRO classes with fewer numbers, 12 OPC classes with fewer numbers and 5 Mod classes with fewer numbers. In other words, we are going to eliminate BSR, BSH and 25SSR as so-called "dead weight" in APBA racing. But we are going to keep 39 other classes in APBA that have fewer numbers.


:soapbox:

[CSH12M]

The real numbers...

BSR 12 people raced at least 6 times
BSH 6 people raced at least 6 times
25SSH 7 people raced at least 6 times

Now the numbers that matter!

MHRA Racer School, 10 "new name" Racers, 34% success rate. Seattle Racer School similar results, Region 7 now online.

We need to funnel the "new growth" into the right classes and offer more time on the water in our rigs.

However, I defer to you Mr. Chairman who seem to think this is a "asinine" direction. You have the answers, the Merc back in A is really paying off big....

I will respectfully withdraw.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M



Here are the raw numbers: BSR, BSH and 25SSH get the axe. Here are their numbers for 2010:

BSR 25 members
BSH 27
25SSH 28

************
Inboard Classes with fewer numbers:

Grand National: 7
2.5 Liter Mod: 19
1 Liter: 25
1.5 Liter Stock 13
Cracker Box 16
Jersey S.Skiff 21
Super Stock 17
KRacing Run. 7
Grand Prix 18

*** Inboard has only 3 classes that have more participants than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: Nat'l Modified: 26, 5 Liter Hydro: 33, and 2.5 L Stock: 41

*************
OPC Classes with fewer numbers:

SST60: 24
SST150: 24
Sport C: 23
Super Sport: 8
Form V: 6
Champ boat: 15
Mod U: 9
SC Mar. 13
VP: 9
Mini GT 3
GT Pro: 9
Tri Hull: 16

**** OPC has only 2 classes with bigger numbers than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: SST-120: 38 and SST-45: 42

***********
PRO Classes with fewer numbers:

125R: 13
250R: 13
350R: 16
500R: 16
1100R: 10
CSerR: 19
CRaceR: 17
KPROH: 25
350H: 22
500H: 10
700H: 9
1100H: 12
175H: 21
CSerH: 14
CRaceH: 14

**** Pro has only two alky classes that have numbers greater than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are 125H: 34, and 250H, 28. (OSY-400 is Pro's biggest class. It has 72 members. But if C Stock Hydro were an Offshore class, it would be the largest class in that category too. I don't count OSY as a Pro class. That's for another thread, though).

************
Modified Classes with fewer numbers:

FAR: 24
AMR: 14
BMR: 16
CMR: 23
25MH: 10


**** Mod does the best of all the other categories with the greatest number of classes that exceed the numbers of BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They have 8. However, only 3 Mod classes exceed those numbers by greater than 20%

Here's the rest of the Mod classes:

DMR: 32
FER: 29
FAH: 27
AMH: 28
BMH: 29
- - - Classes that exceed by 20%
CMH: 58
DMH: 43
FEH: 55


The Bottom Line: We are going to give the axe to BSR, BSH and 25SSH but APBA will keep at least 41 other national classes in other categories that have participation numbers less than the Stock Classes we are proposing to cut.

:heyyou:

[Ron Hill]

Could someone post those numbers or point me to where I'd find them...


Also, while I'm asking where is the actual Sutherland Plan posted?

Thanks...

[Affholter66]

Stock Outboard class reduction and reconfiguration proposal
Summary:
Stock Outboard currently offers 12 classes to approximately 400 different racing members. Stock Outboard membership is currently a third of what it was in 1976 when approximately 1500 different racing members competed. While membership has continued to decline over the last 35 years, SO class structure has remained the same or increased. The result has diluted the Category competition to the point where less than half the current classes can be considered “Nationally” raced. Instead of making the difficult class reduction decisions that should have taken place over the last 25 years, SO Commissions eliminated the rules that governed class contraction. The result is watered down racing, local class schedules, and a confusing/complex class structure that is a hindrance to “new name” growth. Additionally, Stock Outboard membership has declined to low levels that threaten its existence. Without contracting classes and attempting to fix the product/problem at a National level, SO competition will continue to decline and a category combination with Modified category will be inevitable.
The following proposal represents SO contraction and recombination to the following class structure:
A, B.C, D
ASH/ASR - BSH/BSR – CSH/CSR – DSH/DSR
While class contraction is necessary and must be accomplished the following proposal attempts to minimize the amount of displaced “currently” raced equipment. Maximum retention of current membership has been strongly considered (see effected drivers in the notes section). The following classes and motors would be contracted with potentially no place to race within the SO category.
25SSH utilizing the Mercury 25XS
BSH/BSR utilizing the Sidewinder 15ci
The Sidewinder 15ci could be eliminated from the SO category - The Sidewinder 15ci could also be included within the BSH class, but would not be advisable. If the motor is scheduled for elimination the SO Commission should considerer paying for the conversion of the existing Sidewinder 15ci motors (see notes section for specific members and cost)
The Mercury 25XS would/could still be raced within the category in CSR and potentially in CSH however, it could not be the “motor of choice”.
While the following class structure and proposal will streamline SO structure, success will depend on class parity committees and procedures for success and growth. The proposed structure will offer a New Motor and Used Motor option for every class. While parity may be difficult to achieve it is absolutely critical for sustained growth. If parity can be achieved the following structure offers both low cost used equipment options and higher cost new equipment options. While many feel that single motor classes are more desirable they are not practical for different economic entry points within the category. Therefore the parity committees and procedure are critical to success within the category.
Classes:
ASH/ASR: No change within the current ASH/ASR classes.
Targeted for individuals weighing 135-160lbs
Target Speed: ASR – 52-54MPH
ASH – 55-57MPH
• Current OMC motors, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury motor, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR, no other changes to the current class
• Current Sidewinder 15A, weight 345 ASH, 350 ASR no other changes to the current class
It is critical for the parity committee to balance the competition within the class to promote Sidewinder sales while not making the Johnson and Evinrude obsolete within the next three years.
BSH: The BSH class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSH – 62-65MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 365, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI Motor, Weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Yamato 80 (20SSH), weight 400lbs, no other changes to the current class rules
BSR: The BSR would combine the current BSR Hot Rod Rotary Valve Motor and potentially the Sidewinder 15ci with the 20CI Sidewinder.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 160-185lbs
Target Speed: BSR – 59-61MPH
• Current Sidewinder 15ci at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Rotary Valve Hot Rod at 12CC, weight 360, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CIMotor, Weight, 395, no other changes to the current class rules
CSH: The CSH class has no change with the exception of possible inclusion of the 25SSH class, subject to parity package on the 25SSH.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 185-210lbs
Target Speed: CSH – 65-68MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 440, with no other changes to the current class
• Current Mercury 25XS, weight 415, with a parity package to bring speeds under 68MPH
CSR: The CSR class would consist of several different motor options with various weights to aid in achieving parity.
Targeted for drivers weighing from 175-210lbs
Target Speed: CSR – 62-65MPH
• Current Yamato 102 and 302, weight 475, no other changes to the current class rules
• Current Sidewinder 20CI as run in 25SSR, weight 395, no other changes to the current class rules
• Restricted Yamato 102 and 302 as run in 25SSR, weight for 7/16 restrictor 440, 9/16 weight 420
• Mercury 25XS, as run in 25SSR, weight 415
DSH/DSR: No changes to the current DSH and DSR classes.
Targeted for drivers weighing 200-245
Target Speed: DSR – 70-73MPH
DSH – 75-83MPH
Major amendments/considerations:
• B classes – Include the 15ci Sidewinder in the B classes
• BSR – Rollup boats only or Rollup and Sidefin boats
• CSR – Require the Mercury 25XS to run the .685 x 1.245 flat sided oval restrictor, as ran pre 2006
• CSH – Include or eliminate the Mercury 25XS from the CSH class
Parity considerations:
• Sidewinder 15A with the current OMC and Mercury Motors in the A classes
• Mercury 25XS in CSH
• Weights for BSH
• Weights for BSR

I just copied and pasted..hope ya don't mind Dean..BTW I can tell you have put ALOT of work into this..like I said in above post..its not that its not appreciated..just don't agree..hope we can agree to disagree

[CSH12M]

I don't mind a bit, and we can totally agree to disagree anytime....although over a cold one would be better.

The plan is just how we reconfigure the motors, which is important. However, what the Chairman and most others are missing is that it is only the first step. The second is to get those classes on the water more during the weekend. If the members decide this is what they want and we build the classes numbers. I am expecting the we race all classes three times during the weekend and possibly three heats each time!

Right now if you race two classes 25SSR and CSR both days you get 8 heats during the weekend. If you race only CSR 3 times for three heats each you get 9 heats! WITH ONE RIG!!!!!!!!!

This is the key, we increase the VALUE PROPOSITION to the "new name" and existing racer by 50%!!

In the new "racing economy" if motors are going to cost between $3,500-5000 a piece, than we better get them on the water more than 4 heats a weekend. I am sales guy, I know how to sell. I can't in good faith "sell" what we have to new families. (MHRA targets) Increase the value and WE WILL increase the growth.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

[propnuts]

I call you out when you do the wrong thing, guess I should give you props (not the ones on the shaft) when you do the right one. You make very good points and I think everyone will have to have a long hard think about it, but I am glad you will let the members vote.:yes:

I just returned home from the APBA Annual Meeting. The so-called "Sutherland Plan" was approved by the SORC. It will now go to the members for vote by ballot. Simply put, the Sutherland Plan effectively eliminates the current B Stock Classes and 25SS Hydro Class. It combines all other classes and makes 20SSH the new B Stock Hydro Class and Makes the 25SSR Class the new B Stock Runabout Class. (It is a little more complicated than this - I'm simplifying).

For the record, the vote was 6 to 5 in favor of the plan. Also, for the record, the chairman of the meeting has the ability to both break and make a tie. That means that I had the ability to vote "no". If I had voted "no", the vote would have been 6 to 6. That is not a majority so the matter would have failed. I chose not to do that so that the members could vote on the matter. Because it passed the SORC, it will now go to ballot.

Here is why I don't think the Sutherland Plan will work. The idea behind the plan is elimination of classes for either a shorter day or to funnel those members into the stronger classes. The reason this will not work is because the only club in the Country that runs a strictly-Stock, only, schedule is MHRA. All other clubs in the U.S. run Stock and some other category of racing. They have to or they will not have enough income to hold a race. If these classes are eliminated, the clubs will just run another category of racing and, most likely, that will be Mod. In other words, nothing will change except that we will drive our members to Mod. Additionally, MHRA which runs a Stock-only schedule only made money on 1 of its 5 races last year. Thus, if they cut 3 classes in their schedule, they are destined to lose more money. The only way to make this up is to do what the other clubs in the country do: run another category's classes. Likely, this will be the same people, running the same equipment, during the same time-schedule. They'll just be Mod entries instead of Stock entries.

Most importantly, however, how much sense does it make to cut BSR, BSH and 25SSH from APBA's class list when we have 8 Inboard classes that have fewer numbers, 14 PRO classes with fewer numbers, 12 OPC classes with fewer numbers and 5 Mod classes with fewer numbers? In other words, we are going to eliminate BSR, BSH and 25SSR as so-called "dead weight" in APBA racing. But we are going to keep 39 other classes in APBA that have fewer numbers.

In my line of thinking, that makes no sense.

:soapbox:

[raceright]

Here are the raw numbers: BSR, BSH and 25SSH get the axe. Here are their numbers for 2010:

BSR 25 members
BSH 27
25SSH 28

************
Inboard Classes with fewer numbers:

Grand National: 7
2.5 Liter Mod: 19
1 Liter: 25
1.5 Liter Stock 13
Cracker Box 16
Jersey S.Skiff 21
Super Stock 17
KRacing Run. 7
Grand Prix 18

*** Inboard has only 3 classes that have more participants than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: Nat'l Modified: 26, 5 Liter Hydro: 33, and 2.5 L Stock: 41

*************
OPC Classes with fewer numbers:

SST60: 24
SST150: 24
Sport C: 23
Super Sport: 8
Form V: 6
Champ boat: 15
Mod U: 9
SC Mar. 13
VP: 9
Mini GT 3
GT Pro: 9
Tri Hull: 16

**** OPC has only 2 classes with bigger numbers than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are: SST-120: 38 and SST-45: 42

***********
PRO Classes with fewer numbers:

125R: 13
250R: 13
350R: 16
500R: 16
1100R: 10
CSerR: 19
CRaceR: 17
KPROH: 25
350H: 22
500H: 10
700H: 9
1100H: 12
175H: 21
CSerH: 14
CRaceH: 14

**** Pro has only two alky classes that have numbers greater than BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They are 125H: 34, and 250H, 28. (OSY-400 is Pro's biggest class. It has 72 members. But if C Stock Hydro were an Offshore class, it would be the largest class in that category too. I don't count OSY as a Pro class. That's for another thread, though).

************
Modified Classes with fewer numbers:

FAR: 24
AMR: 14
BMR: 16
CMR: 23
25MH: 10


**** Mod does the best of all the other categories with the greatest number of classes that exceed the numbers of BSR, BSH or 25SSH. They have 8. However, only 3 Mod classes exceed those numbers by greater than 20%

Here's the rest of the Mod classes:

DMR: 32
FER: 29
FAH: 27
AMH: 28
BMH: 29
- - - Classes that exceed by 20%
CMH: 58
DMH: 43
FEH: 55


The Bottom Line: We are going to give the axe to BSR, BSH and 25SSH but APBA will keep at least 41 other national classes in other categories that have participation numbers less than the Stock Classes we are proposing to cut.

:heyyou:

Ed
Stock outboarders believe that the most important thing is amount of boats in a class...Is this the way to successful racing--???
Other categories do not believe this to be true as the numbers you show
prove.

I will not get into a debate on the subject because I totaly believe in the opposite and will not insult my (few thats left) stockoutboard friends.
Let your membership decide the future and so be it.

Pat

[14-H]

Could someone post those numbers or point me to where to find them?

******

Thanks...

Ron: the APBA website. Look under highpoints for 2010. It lists the number of boats from last year.

[MGallagher]

"Parity" looks like a lot of fun! Good luck with that! There are motorsports out there that have been dealing with "parity" for 100 years and you know what they all say, "just make sure your motor in production is the dominent one." The only true "parity" that will give the ability to continue on, is one that makes our currnet production motors the dominent ones,PERIOD.

[B Walker]

Holy crap, I am in agreement with Ed on something....

Way to go Chairman.

Class consolidation does not reduce the time it takes to execute a day of racing except in a very few cases and even in those exceptions there is no way it reduces the race day by enough to race 3 days over a weekend.

The math just doesnt work.

Please prove me wrong by stating a real life example.

Sorry Dean, I just cant see it.

Brad Walker

[CSH12M]

Brad, you are right it would be a long day, but don't we want to try and move in the right direction. It is impossible now...

J, A, B, C, D classes three heats three races a weekend is 90 heats total. 45 heats a day, 6 heats an hour, 7 hour race day. Pretty much what we are dealing with now. Run the AX classes with A, or run two of the races at three heats and one at two, or run Sat. two heats and Sunday racing three.

It would be a start, and a step in the right direction.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

[Blackhawkguy]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Ed. Why would you not use the one club in the country that still can run a complete stock only program as your model for success. Why would you take Stock Outboard on a national level and model it after areas that strugle. Would it not be better to give the strugling areas a good model to follow and let them work out their own problems as they have done for years. You build from a good foundation and proper tools. Don't take your best and force it into medeocraty. Make a good solid class structure and quit trying to please everyone.

Dean don't be so hard on Ed, there is no way to get through everything you need to at a national meeting without using Robert's rules.

The SORC should be woking on making a great model for all clubs to folow if possible, if they are unable do to limited memebers in their area then they at least have something to shoot for. I do not know how many times I see people posting how do we put on better races. You have clubs who do this now. Quit trying to reinvent the wheel just use their model.

Thank you to everyone who takes the time to go to these meetings.

Thank you Ed for taking the wheight of this problem on your shoulders.

From someone on the outside looking in it definatly nees to be fixed. I at this time would have a very hard time purchasing any equipment to return to Stock Outboard boat racing.

Kerry

[brian]

The unlucky 13th boat is the problem. I do not race enough stock to care other than it sounds like I will not be invited to race mod at Constantine much longer.

I am not sure I would want to race 9 times a day running 2 classes. That means I am racing or in a patrol boat every set. If my class were to get elims does that increase or decrease my seat time? Now we are back to 6 boat fields.

Here is my advice. You can undo what you have done but give it a chance. I am looking at it this way. Maybe the stocks will not want 3 heat racing and MHRA will offer 750R at Constantine! Or better yet combine us with DSR and have a huge field!

Who am I kidding I do not even have a boat to race anymore.

[B Walker]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Ed. Why would you not use the one club in the country that still can run a complete stock only program as your model for success.

MHRA should not be the posterboy club for APBA because they only ran 1 race out of 5 events that made money as reported in another thread.

BW

[14-H]

MHRA can implement the Sutherland Plan if it so chooses. There is nothing stopping the club from doing that. Just combine the classes or do like Dana Holt does for his TRORA races: don't put the smaller classes on the schedule.

The ballot issue is, however, whether this will be MANDATORY across the country.

Moreover, I have never gotten an answer to my question about why the proverbial "stick" method is better than the "carrot" one. In other words, why do we force this issue rather than letting the members decide which classes they want to race. The A and C classes are definitely more attractive classes and that is where most people migrate to. Why must they be forced to go their as the Sutherland Proposal mandates?

[B Walker]

Another good point Ed, your on a roll.

APBA rules allow a lot of freedom at the club level to run an event just about any way the club members want to run it.

Innovation only occurs where there is freedom.

BW

A growing membership solves all financial problems in APBA.

[CSH12M]

The simple answer.....because it is not working.

I believe that a Category within APBA should be able to hold stand alone races and should be held to producing positive growth within its Category.

I believe that we should be working within the category on the following goals:

1. Other parts of the country build up Stock entries enough to hold a stand alone event.

2. Each class within the S.O. Category has at least 100 Racing members within the class.

3. Every class within the S.O. Category races with full fields at the National Championships.

4. Every Region in the country hosts Racer Schools

5. After we right size the product we show positive membership growth for the next ten years.

I believe these goals ARE attainable, but it wont just happen on its own. We need to set the goal and measure our performance against it. We can't just wish things better. Contracting classes won't fix it all, it is just a piece of the puzzle. However, combining it with Racer Schools and a consistent selling message will drive growth in classes. This has nothing to do with MHRA or club level issues, and I resent the implication from the Chairman that is does. This is about fixing the product at the top so that we can all grow in the same direction. Imagine if the rebirth of Region 1 25SSH would of been in BSH or in CSH? We have a product problem, and the category can fix that if it chooses. The marketing problem is fixed both locally (club level, Racer Schools) and Nationally (APBA investing in technology to make leads avaiable). These things all work together and are intertwined. It has taken us 20 years to dwindle to this point, it wont get fixed in a year. It won't be one motion, or plan, or idea, or Racer School, that undoes 20 years of decline. It has to be all these things working together in conjunction around the country to pull out of this downward spiral.

It will be much much harder to battle back than to just watch it dwindle away. I choose to try and battle back! If no one wants to or agrees, than at least I can dwindle away knowing that I tried.

Now my question to the Chair that has also not been answered? What plans or ideas do you have to try and accomplish any of five listed goals?

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M




MHRA can implement the Sutherland Plan if it so chooses. There is nothing stopping the club from doing that. Just combine the classes or do like Dana Holt does for his TRORA races: don't put the smaller classes on the schedule.

The ballot issue is, however, whether this will be MANDATORY across the country.

Moreover, I have never gotten an answer to my question about why the proverbial "stick" method is better than the "carrot" one. In other words, why do we force this issue rather than letting the members decide which classes they want to race. The A and C classes are definitely more attractive classes and that is where most people migrate to. Why must they be forced to go their as the Sutherland Proposal mandates?

[14-H]

***

A growing membership solves all financial problems in APBA.



Absolutely right. The proposal made to the APBA BOD should take care of that.

[Dave M]

I am not taking sides here, but I do have a question for Ed Hearn.

Do you feel stock outboard needs serious change to move forward and grow membership ?

I am assuming you agree a problem exists and you are intent on finding a solution. Should you feel there is no problem, we can leave it at that.

Some of you might wonder why I even post in the stock section. Becasue what happens in stock will always make it to Mod.

[dholt]

"A growing membership solves all financial problems in APBA."

This is true...but the membership is not growing...it's declining.

So I ask...for the 1,000,000th time...why are we clinging to a model/system that is not working?

As Dean stated a few posts above...our goal should be full fields at EVERY Nationals. At least 100 members in each class and the ability to conduct a stand alone race without losing money. I'll add we should have full fields at every weekend race as well.

On a different thread a new racer asked Region 10 members if there were going to be any DMH or FEH to race against? That right there shows a MAJOR problem. No one should have to ask if there are enough boats to race against in an entire region. Doesn't matter what the class is. If the class exists...there should be plenty of them.

[reed28n]

1) The SORC voted to send "Dean's plan" to ballot. This plan has some features that this same SORC was threatened by when it was called "The Steering Committee" and a "5 year plan"

2) I find it disturbing that the only time the chairman has an opinion is when the commission does not produce the outcome that he wants. Ed, you have lobbied your position. Now it is time to defend what you commission has passed. That is the function of your position. Agree or disagree you have to come out in support of your commission. The commissioners that cast their vote for you with the expectation that you would promote their passed votes.

I cannot applaud you for not exercising your right to cast a vote in this matter and then being the first one to criticize the outcome. Looks like another political manuver, not a solution.

Seems you enjoy the Judicial arm more than the legislative. Maybe you should have been a Judge.

[14-H]

*** but I do have a question for Ed Hearn.

Do you feel stock outboard needs serious change to move forward and grow membership ?

***.

I am not as doom-and-gloom as many. We have a decline in membership/participation recently due to the economy. If you look at the history of all of APBA over the last 30 years, our numbers track the overall economic climate. Stock Outboard, however, has a very bright future with current-production engines now being available in all classes. Thus, to answer your question: Do I feel SO needs a serious change? No. Do I think it needs changes? Yes.

What I would change is the way we do business, however, to attract people to our sport. I supported that change by taking a presentation to the APBA BOD to change the way we do business, the way we communicate with our members and the way we communicate with the public interested in what we do. I would NOT force the existing members to change which is what the Sutherland plan does. First, I don't believe that coersion is the way to go about it. I favor attracting people to the bigger classes and letting them do the choosing. Second, I don't think it will work as I have stated before. It will simply help the Mod Category and nothing will change at the local races.

[14-H]

***On a different thread a new racer asked Region 10 members if there were going to be any DMH or FEH to race against? That right there shows a MAJOR problem. No one should have to ask if there are enough boats to race against in an entire region. Doesn't matter what the class is. If the class exists...there should be plenty of them.

That right there shows I am right: the racers will just race a Mod class instead of a Stock one if this plan passes.

[14-H]

1) ***& Ed, you have lobbied your position. Now it is time to defend what you commission has passed. That is the function of your position. ***.

Scott: If you were me, you would have voted, made the tie and caused the motion to go the way you wanted it to go. In fact, that is EXACTLY what you did on the Mercury A matter. That is not the way I do things and, since there is still a first amendment, I believe I am not only entitled to my opinion, but to express it. Thank-you for your input.

[dholt]

Ed,

Are you joking with that response? You don't know who this new driver is or what equipment he currently has.

He could have a Tohatsu 'D'. He could have a 'D' stock Merc. He could have a full blown 'D' Mod or FE. None of which are affected by Dean's plan.

I will bet you my house he doesn't have a Hot Rod BSH.

In a country of over 300,000,000 it is a failure that only 3 DSR's scored points in an APBA closed course race in 2010.

That is the issue. How do we measure success and failure. Is 3 boats in DSR a success or failure? I know what I call it.

[14-H]

Ed,

Are you joking with that response? ***He could have a Tohatsu 'D'. He could have a 'D' stock Merc. He could have a full blown 'D' Mod or FE. None of which are affected by Dean's plan.

***.

Dana: Where would he be going if he owned a Hot Rod or a Mercury 25XS? Answer: MOD. That is the problem with the plan's premise. I'm not joking.

[Dave M]

What I would change is the way we do business, however, to attract people to our sport. I supported that change by taking a presentation to the APBA BOD to change the way we do business, the way we communicate with our members and the way we communicate with the public interested in what we do.


Thanks for clarifying, at least it is a baby step toward recognizing there is a problem, and forming a solution. I agree with you that communication is lacking in a terrible way with APBA and the membership. The membership should not have to call the leadership and ask what is going on. This only creates the chaos of feeling deceived. And that is how many have expressed they feel.

Good luck in with the SO category. Hopefully things can turn around and grow. If not, it will be one category before long. Which is not such a bad thing either.

[CSH12M]

Not so doom and gloom, really?

I reported to the Commission that MHRA, the last club to hold SO only races lost over $4,500 on the five races it ran last year! Not because of the economy, but because in the last five years we went from having 125 racers per weekend to 85. We survived for a few years by cutting out expenses, but now what. We did what every other club in America has had to do, we raised entry fee. So what will that do for our entries?

Blaming our decline on economy can't be your answer for growth.

The economy will never again be good for the masses to support Outboard Racing. Our new engines are expensive! and if you do buy one we reward you by making you run it in a weak class for a limited amount of time during the weekend. For the first time in America your kids will not make as much as you. These trends are not going to change. Rigs are expensive! and we only allow the racer to race them for a brief amount of time. The 45 class did more to hurt kneel down racing than any economic climate has. That class while a different ride has two main things going for it. You own one rig and you race it a lot over the weekend. Oh BTW, that Category is working on finding a new replacement engine, in addition to APBA Formula 4 (which is silly because it will compete against each other for members just like we do) but what do you think is going to happen to our member numbers if/when they roll out? It used to be that racing 45 was far more expensive than Stock, but not any more. The difference between our rigs has narrowed dramatically.

We have to look at change or look at the death of local Grass Roots Stock Outboard racing.

Thanks,
Dean Sutherland
12M

I am not as doom-and-gloom as many. We have a decline in membership/participation recently due to the economy. If you look at the history of all of APBA over the last 30 years, our numbers track the overall economic climate. Stock Outboard, however, has a very bright future with current-production engines now being available in all classes. Thus, to answer your question: Do I feel SO needs a serious change? No. Do I think it needs changes? Yes.

What I would change is the way we do business, however, to attract people to our sport. I supported that change by taking a presentation to the APBA BOD to change the way we do business, the way we communicate with our members and the way we communicate with the public interested in what we do. I would NOT force the existing members to change which is what the Sutherland plan does. First, I don't believe that coersion is the way to go about it. I favor attracting people to the bigger classes and letting them do the choosing. Second, I don't think it will work as I have stated before. It will simply help the Mod Category and nothing will change at the local races.

[reed28n]

Dana: Where would he be going if he owned a Hot Rod or a Mercury 25XS? Answer: MOD. That is the problem with the plan's premise. I'm not joking.

I submit that this is exactly where these motors should be going if we cannot grow their class, once a motor is no longer available.

Stock Outboard should be introducing new alternative power unit solutions and the motors no longer available should be made available for Mod.

Why is that an evil plan? Some motors will be sold to die hard mod guys by die hard stock guys that will buy new equipment. Some drivers will migrate with their equipment and remain an APBA member.

In every scenerio you fail to acknowledge that a large percentage of our base number of paticipants are new drivers. New drivers that we lose because our category is not forward thinking.

The Mercury in my opinion, which was expressed by my vote......should be reserved for the J category. Allow step up registration to make points races for A drivers, but keep that limited pool of mercury's for the J category. But hey I didn't bring it up....

[jeff34f]

Mr. Chairman,
Maybe its time to initiate and finish what we started when the 12 of us met in Louisville, Ky back in late 90's.

Jeff Carter
34-F

[53-W]

The problem is there is no new racers just sitting on the beach wishing they could get NEW equipment in order to race boats! That hole mind set that lack of new Equipment is hurting us is prue BS.
If someone really wants to race something they go and get what they need and choose a class that best fits what they think they will like and race.
The problem there is to many other activites these days competing with each other for peoples time and money during the summer.
The current model snowmobile Ice oval racing is even more dead right now then kneel down boat racing. Which are classes that you buy a brand new snowmobile and race stock or mod ice oval.

The vintage ice oval classes, sleds made 1970-1985 have been growing every year by about 20%. This year at eagle river vintage worlds weekend they had record number of sleds. Over 800 showed up to race. They all are out of production snowmobiles with no factory backing any more for parts.
They spend about as much time ice time as we do on the water, if you average both of are heats. They also have a drivers school this year to try to get new drivers.

There is more going on with are low numbers then "lack of new equipment and to many classes"!

53w

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

53-W Is right. many motorsports are seeing growth in classes that do not offer new equipment . For example Bracket Drag Racing, rice cars never did catch on. Vintage Motocross has Become a monster, although internal politics almost killed AHRMA. For fun check this out, http://www.siegecraftnw.com/VDR.htm
We just need to do a better job with what we have. Stop shooting ourselves in the foot with constant rule changes that ether allow changes that advantage the few, or make changes that force us all.
We need to allow boat racing with an eye towards making the new racer successful while encouraging old racers who still have there equipment to come join the fun.

[Boatracer4fun]

:pepsi::porch

Great lunchtime entertainment!

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

We just need to do a better job with what we have. Stop shooting ourselves in the foot with constant rule changes that ether allow changes that advantage the few, or make changes that force us all.
We need to allow boat racing with an eye towards making the new racer successful while encouraging old racers who still have there equipment to come join the fun.

Very well put, you hit it right on the head!
:heyyou:

[KG4]

The problem is there is no new racers just sitting on the beach wishing they could get NEW equipment in order to race boats! That hole mind set that lack of new Equipment is hurting us is prue BS.
If someone really wants to race something they go and get what they need and choose a class that best fits what they think they will like and race.
The problem there is to many other activites these days competing with each other for peoples time and money during the summer.
The current model snowmobile Ice oval racing is even more dead right now then kneel down boat racing. Which are classes that you buy a brand new snowmobile and race stock or mod ice oval.

The vintage ice oval classes, sleds made 1970-1985 have been growing every year by about 20%. This year at eagle river vintage worlds weekend they had record number of sleds. Over 800 showed up to race. They all are out of production snowmobiles with no factory backing any more for parts.
They spend about as much time ice time as we do on the water, if you average both of are heats. They also have a drivers school this year to try to get new drivers.

There is more going on with are low numbers then "lack of new equipment and to many classes"!

53wYou are right about vintage snowmobile racing.They have there high dollar vintage classes but they also have VERY affordable classes.I got my race ready 78 yamaha 250 for $800.00 and it is a front running sled and i can still get any part for it i need.I love SO racing but just cant afford it any more.The only race i am doing is Top O with my KG4.Wish i could afford a new engine but not at this time.My dream rig is a new D stock runabout.

[Greenacre3M]

Proposal 6 is going to eliminate equipment and drivers. I'm the first to admit that I know nothing about APBA pollitics, but I've been around stock outboard for all my life. My family started racing stock outboard in the early 50's. I can remember going to the races and there were more boats then you could count. As the years went on the boats got fewer and fewer. I can remember when I first started racing ASR in the 70's, there was always plenty of boats and most of the time we had to run eliminations. When they eliminated the old Mercs and OMC came aboard, I saw a decline in members. I blame the decline in stock racing to the economy, and the cost of getting into the sport. I could not afford new equipment when I got started, and was happy that used equipment was available. If you think the availability of new equipment and the elimination of current motors is the answer to getting stock outboard back to where it use to be, I strongly disagree. I've gotten new members into stock outboard, and not one of them ever asked me where they could purchase new equipment. I agree new equipment is great for the sport and a must to keep it moving forward, but if you eliminate current motors, you're going to eliminate drivers. We don't want to make this sport harder to get involved in, but the way it's going I think we are. It's to easy to get involved in a different racing sport at alot less cost.

[Racerkyle20]

Proposal 6 is going to eliminate equipment and drivers. I'm the first to admit that I know nothing about APBA pollitics, but I've been around stock outboard for all my life. My family started racing stock outboard in the early 50's. I can remember going to the races and there were more boats then you could count. As the years went on the boats got fewer and fewer. I can remember when I first started racing ASR in the 70's, there was always plenty of boats and most of the time we had to run eliminations. When they eliminated the old Mercs and OMC came aboard, I saw a decline in members. I blame the decline in stock racing to the economy, and the cost of getting into the sport. I could not afford new equipment when I got started, and was happy that used equipment was available. If you think the availability of new equipment and the elimination of current motors is the answer to getting stock outboard back to where it use to be, I strongly disagree. I've gotten new members into stock outboard, and not one of them ever asked me where they could purchase new equipment. I agree new equipment is great for the sport and a must to keep it moving forward, but if you eliminate current motors, you're going to eliminate drivers. We don't want to make this sport harder to get involved in, but the way it's going I think we are. It's to easy to get involved in a different racing sport at alot less cost.


The plan is NOT to eliminate equipment. Just FYI. As a stock commissioner i agree something needs to be done with class consolidation, but also as a commissioner my goal is NOT to eliminate motors....

[Greenacre3M]

I don't want to step on anybodys toes, but can anyone out there explain to me why the Mark 55H motor, made in the 50's is still a legal DSR/DSH motor? Maybe we should look at the D class a little more, instead of the BSR/BSH-25SS classes.

[Greenacre3M]

The way they want to combine classes, will eliminate motors and equipment, not to mention drivers.

[Racerkyle20]

The way they want to combine classes, will eliminate motors and equipment, not to mention drivers.

The whole point of combination is to create more entries in fewer classes. Making SO more entertaining to potential newbies and spectators. 3-4 boat heats of BSH is boring....

Why shouldn't the 55h be in D? It's still legal because people had a fit when the merc came into play. Once everyone figured out the merc was faster in the 80s they dumped the 55h and bought mercs....Sounds like a similar debcale we are having today in certain classes...

[Greenacre3M]

I agree, I would like to see less classes and more boats. I just think the class structure needs to be looked at a little more. The Sidewinder should make the BSH/BSR class bigger and better, and should compete very well, but putting the larger Yamato boats with the class is wrong. The CSR/CSH and 20ss classes are by far the largest classes I've seen, and I think it's because the motor is available and at an available cost. (not one of these motors are new) Those classes, I think should be left alone. I'm waiting to see how many Sidewinders are going to be purchased. I hope alot, to benifit our sport. I would like to see one at the Marathon Nationals, just to see how they compete and hold up. As far as the Mark 55H, now that we have new motors for the class, maybe it should be eliminated like the other old Mercs were.

[Raymond]

A few things I know for certain...

1) Change is never easy.
2) The result will never be known if the action is never taken.
3) When all is said and done; not everyone will be happy.
4) If we keep looking in the rear view mirror we will never get focused on where we are headed.

While this is surely a controversial topic, we must all agree that status-quo is not getting-r-done for us. There must be some middle ground that those on both ends of this can meet at.

[Dave M]

A few things I know for certain...

1) Change is never easy.
2) The result will never be known if the action is never taken.
3) When all is said and done; not everyone will be happy.
4) If we keep looking in the rear view mirror we will never get focused on where we are headed.

While this is surely a controversial topic, we must all agree that status-quo is not getting-r-done for us. There must be some middle ground that those on both ends of this can meet at.

If there ever was a more perfect status of the stock outboard currently I have not seen it. Well played.

[smallfish]

I can not congratulate you for not exercising their right to vote on this issue and then be the first to criticize the result. Looks like another political manuver, solution.Seems no one likes the judiciary over the legislature. Maybe I should have been a judge.

[ram95]

. As far as the Mark 55H, now that we have new motors for the class, maybe it should be eliminated like the other old Mercs were.

All these motors constitute an entry and a boat-on-the-water. Even more importantly, it's probably a true enthusiast driving it. Consolidating classes by blending motors that dig a deep hole in the water with motors that don't, or motors that don't accel as well, or decel well (big flywheel) will cause some dues paying members to just go away. And, they won't be around to run marathons either.

Each club can take the existing rules and write the sanction to suite what they want to see run. It's called freedom of choice. And the rules allow it. Sutherland deserves A LOT of credit for putting pencil to paper. So do Tom Nuccio and Howie Nichols, who also wrote their ideas down. Proposal 6 crashed, but at the least it provides a point of reference to work from.

Let's not be eliminating any engines. We may find we are eliminating the "engines aka members" who are helping keep our sport running.

Alex

[B Walker]

Voting is over, the membership has spoken

Please express yourself to your Region Representative

The silly season is done....lets go racing!

BW

[ram95]

Voting is over, the membership has spoken

Please express yourself to your Region Representative

The silly season is done....lets go racing!

BW

I am the region representative. We were headed to Jesup but yer outta water.

Alex
SO Commissioner, Region One

[HydroKyle93R]

I like how this is still going nowhere...publicly, at least.

[Al Peffley]

Since I raced C-stock and OSY for over a decade, I will add my comments to this thread. I think Sutherland has it right -- something needs to be done to streamline the APBA model race venue and modify the number of national racing classes in order to draw new members and bring back racing with real trophies and local media coverage (and maybe even draw some sanction sponsors from local businesses near the race site.)

Most local business sponsors will not support the "hobby shop racing" approach we currently have in operation in many regions (at least for some sanctions in my region.) Clubs need to be more pro-active to obtain sanction sponsors and they will need to increase some race fees (quit wining about a $15-20 class fee increase when you now spend at least twice the money for tow gas as you spent five years ago.)

Changes also may mean fewer races in a region, but hopefully the strong sanctions will result in three heats a day to run for each class. USTS has success in splitting up the classes between the two days of racing on a weekend to insure more heats per class are accomplished (this format would also leave more time for people to volunteer for kicker boat & corner judging positions, and eliminate the excuse some drivers have who race multiple classes that do not ever volunteer for those race support positions.)

Since existing outboard motor manufacturers won't significantly support local outboard racing sanctions nationally (I am not talking about the US sales reps here, but the motor company's headquarters), then regional clubs need to find more local business sponsors for the majority of our races. We might even consider charging a small spectator attendance fee to watch some of our larger races (like some of the inboard clubs in my region; excess money collected usually goes to a local non-profit community services organization.)

That said, class "body count" does not cut it for rationalizing the retention of stock outboard classes. Dean is right -- the real statistics that are important are how many races the class members actually compete in, not how many people register for the class each year.

I have always believed that the real decision for APBA to keep supporting a dwindling class is also about the availability and reliability of outboard motor equipment for any stock class (or for that matter, any outboard racing class). If engine equipment can't be easily obtained by racers who don't have a personal parts "stash" to draw from, then the class is an oligopoly (or some might say it's even a monopoly run by a group of incumbent members in any non-profit organization.)

Boat builders also must have a minimum number of annual buyers to keep building hulls. Classes that drop below 8 entries at the national championship level should be considered for restructuring or elimination in my view (I know that would not be popular, but it makes sense to me.)

I'll get off my :soapbox: now. It has been really fun racing with the C-stock community in the past. Thank God Yamato has continued to supply true racing motors to us.

Cheers,
Al

[42M]

That 12M guy is right about the SST45 class. It cheaper to get a full 45 rig together ($4k-$6k) these days than it is to get any competitive stock rig ($6k-$9k) J classes included. I've pit crewed for enough 45 drivers over the last 8 years to know that with the small teams the local sponsorships do make a big difference.

[reed28n]

Dean had an idea that was thinking in the right direction, but I believe that it was perceived to be too far reaching. Much like the 2008-2009 steering committee plan. APBA talks about lowering barriers of entry. I see our current class structure and the need to run multiple categories as a major barrier. Someone new to the sport has no idea what to get with 3 and 4 motor options, people running stock motors in mod classes as field fillers. Not to mention the challenge for our inspection volunteers of multiple motors with differetn heights and weights and restrictor combinations.

The national platform should be simplified and let local club run add on classes if they want. Different regions have different classes, Region 1 has 25XSH, Region 6 has DSR ...... Region 2 this weekend we had Classic B's

Good fields in 20SSH, CSH and DSH motors are still available and you have a race almost every weekend.

[ram95]

With due respect to all the folks who were populating the the outboard racing scene while I went off to war for 22 plus years.... it's important to keep in mind that inside someones little garage, living room, shed, or "hobby shop" is where outboard motor racing sprouted. And, that is exactly where it sprouts from today.

Little 'jakey' rigs towed by an aging SUV stuffed with a couple kids and camping gear.... and NOT so much from all the glorified sources cited (USTS, PRO, etc) is where the future lies for races "every weekend".... "near you".

We just returned from Crystal Lake NY where there was an incredible display of 20H's on hydros and utilities, 55H's on hydros, which I might add all got off the beach AND FINISHED!!!. Meanwhile families and kids were playing happily in the sand on the beach. Yeah..!! and I'm not sure if all the kids toes were covered ....errr ahhh perhaps they were (ohh yeah!!):o.

Crystal Lake.. the Canadien-American playground hosted by FLRC is where there is HOPE for a level of Stock & Mod outboard racing. The folks with these altruistic ideas for remolding things better not gloss over the facts.

Another thing the re-molders need to reminded of is: DON'T TELL ME HOW TO SPEND MY MONEY... AND DON'T TRY TO SPEND IT FOR ME. Or yer bucket's gonna have a hole in it.:)

Hope to see everyone at Kingston NH on the 24 & 25 Sep, where there's going to be another "family racing affair" on Greenwood Pond.

Alex
8A & 12A

[ryan_4z]

What if we are underestimating our potential new racers and overestimating the appeal of our product? What if this is it? What then?

[raceright]

what if we are underestimating our potential new racers and overestimating the appeal of our product? What if this is it? What then?

bingo

[Big Don]

Ryan, for my simple mind...you might have you lost me, not sure yet...



Who is our potential racer?

What is our product?



Only then might i be able to answer this and then.

[CSH12M]

MHRA is growing we added two new racer families this year and already have two more targeting equipment for next year. Grass Lake had 117 short course entries on Sat. and 110 Sunday. Plus another 18 per day in the Marathon. Big Rapids had 109 entries with the Marathon. This is with 3and2 racing in JH/JR/ASH/ASR/20SSH/CSH/CSR. These are the growth classes. It is only one year, but we all can see the impact and feel that we are starting to turn the corner.

[Al Peffley]

My hobby shop comment was not meant to take a poke at individual racers and boat owners with a limited budget who are looking for a new family-oriented water sport for recreation and competitive fun. The hobby shop approach I am referring to is the confusing daily race format and resulting schedule that evolves each day of racing from trying to juggle the multitude of different racing classes at local race events. Most races in my region do not have a firm race schedule published before the driver's meeting each day. Each race day, schedules are constantly adjusted during the drivers' meeting for all of the hybrid class equipment change-outs (and sometimes just to accommodate a few drivers competing in multiple classes that mess up the timing for the rest of a race day.) The result is usually a long, boring and confusing day for non-racing spectators and family members of racers.

There is no schedule format or class order of running consistency for anyone who wants to only watch a particular class or racer run. I am not inventing this [hobby shop] race scheduling scenario, my non-racing family and friends who want to watch me race have been frustrated with confusing race schedules and swap-out delays for almost ten years now.

If you don't like PRO and Mod classes to participate in the same races you do, but want their money, then accept the fact that you will eventually discourage them from racing with you. If some APBA local clubs continue to avoid making fair and predictable race schedules for local events you will lose participants. There is no motivation for me (or others who have raced for years in APBA) to spend $10,000 on a PRO or Mod powerboat racing setup and only get maybe one heat a day of racing in, especially when too many stock classes are scheduled to race on the same day. I don't know of any other APBA category of racing (Unlimited, Limiteds, Personal Watercraft, Off-shore, etc.) that has this race event scheduling shuffle problem, do you?

Most race sponsors and public spectators expect a standardized schedule of some type for a significant motorsports event. They might also want to promote or participate in other community activities that may be going on the same weekend as the boat race. Races that are held primarily for a few local membership racers or families that benefit the most from the schedule of the race will not draw new or existing PRO/Mod class racers in the long run. Who wants to drive hundreds of miles one way to a race sanction, pay their entry fees, and not run at least two heats per day at a race event?:(

If you think beginner stock racing equipment is easy to come by and will run reliably for a new racer in this economy, then your "hobby shop" was better supplied than mine when I started racing CSH in 1993. JSH/R, ASH/R, CSH/R are well established and good used equipment is fairly easy to obtain. The rest of the stock classes seem to be struggling NATIONWIDE due to equipment purchasing and motor knowledge availability issues (very little printed literature is available on motor assembly parts & race setups - in my stock class racing experience, Yamato has been the exception.)

If BSR or any other stock classes are popular in one region, there is no reason that regional clubs should not run them if they choose to do so. The question is how do we make APBA outboard class racing more appealing to race event sponsors, potential new racers, and non-racing spectators on a national scale and also expect a good racer turnout in each APBA-organized class for that race. If you want a national event for special classes unique to a regional area, make it a regional powerboat racing "Circuit" and hold a regional trophy event for those classes. As a side note, I enjoyed watching the Midwest and East Coast guys and gals in the BSR class run in the APBA Stock Nationals at Moses Lake about four years ago; it was unique because that class does not normally run in my region, at least since 1993 when I was a new racer.

BTW - I did not appreciate the negative comments about USTS and PRO classes. Many PRO drivers race in the same APBA sanctions with stock class racers (some PRO class racers do not have the opportunity to live a reasonable distance from most of the current USTS race sites.) PRO and Mod APBA/local club membership and race fee money helps enable racers to run every year in stock classes (some also with only around three boats participating in a typical local race heat.) Thank you for serving your country, Alex.

Al

[ram95]

... It's good to know that my comments elicited such an extensive and rational response. Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts into print. I like to think that I'm not the only one who might benefit from your remarks.

Alex