Stock Outboard 2011 National Meeting Updates!!!!!!

[mike ross]

Ok boys and girls. Mikey is locked, cocked, and ready to rock!!!!! I will post the Agenda with the motions and the results as we go. Check with the site throughout the day to see what is happening in your division. The attachment is what we are all using as a guilde. got to go!!! Fast Eddie is in Da-House!!!!!!!:boat:

[mike ross]

Owe I forgot to attach the adenda!!!

[mike ross]

Having technical diffaculty. Maybe Hydroracer doesnt like the upload. I swear I wont show pictures of Warnock's boxers.

[Islandmon]

Good luck and thanks to all for your efforts.

Sam,

[Haüenstein]

"Stock Nationals back at Moses Lake Washington in 2014. Waiting to hear if it will be combined with J and Mod Categories as proposed."

"Stock Outboard 2011 Western Divisionals awarded to Seaside, OR. on June 25th+26th"

"2013 Stock Winter Nationals awarded to Indio, CA in March. Dates YTD"

"1/4 mile straightaway records going to general ballot. These will be just like a kilo, but only 1240ft in length instead of 3280ft. Separate ballot item will be...to allow HOC points for these new 1/4 mile records."

[mike ross]

Here is were we are so far. Check out the red motions on the agenda.

[blueskyracer]

Thanks for the great updates!

[propnuts]

Congrats to the SORC for getting a lot done in a short time. Also a BIG congrats and thanks to Dave and Kyle for helping return the SO Nationals to Moses Lake!!!! :D:congrats:

[blueskyracer]

Congrats to the SORC for getting a lot done in a short time. Also a BIG congrats and thanks to Dave and Kyle for helping return the SO Nationals to Moses Lake!!!! :D:congrats:

That is only a 5 hour drive for us. The wife says we will be there!. Which park do they race at for nationals in Moses Lake??

[Aussie Steve]

Congrats to the SORC for getting a lot done in a short time. Also a BIG congrats and thanks to Dave and Kyle for helping return the SO Nationals to Moses Lake!!!! :D:congrats:

Yes top marks , I can not wait for that one

[brian]

3. Elimination of full butterflies in the Tahatsu D motor

Replacement of the factory installed throttle plates (butterflys) is complicated by the fact that the screws in most foreign carburetors are not sold separately. These factory installed screws are flared so they will not fall out. Removing these screws to change the butterflys damages the threads of the screws and the throttle shaft. There is question regarding the need to replace the factory butterflys with solid ones. The wording in paragraph 5, requires the throttle to automatically go "closed" when released. Kill switches are installed to kill the engine. Back in the olden days there was no kill switch requirement, hence the 'solid butterfly' rule. If an incorrect or damaged screw is used it could fall out and damage the engine. Or worse, it could cause the throttle to jam. The need for solid butterflys no longer exists. The rule is a carryover from the days before kill switches.
Recommendation: Eliminate the second sentence in paragraph 5.

Sorry tahatsu guys this is the dumbest request yet. Quote me all you want. I hope this one fails. I want the names of the people who vote yes. So I can tell them to stop running with scissors while smoking and filling their gas tank.

[Tomtall]

So I can tell them to stop running with scissors while smoking and filling their gas tank.


(Sorry to high jake the thread)

[Jack Stotts]

Full butterflies do more than "kill" the engine. They tend protect the engine in the situation where the engine is suddenly immersed in water. Also, I've seen too many "kill" switches fail to do the job. Even after being tested. When tested, all you know is that it worked then. The full butterfly is too esential to be discarded. I would think that with all the technical capabilities in the organization a solution could be had to eliminate the butterfly screw issue without changing the full butterfly rule. Jack :usflag:

[EKorpe]

I alway's thought a 1/4 mile was 1320 ft ! What is the purpose of 1/4 mile time trial's ? anybody ??

[B1PRORACER]

A skilled person can run with scissors and nothing will happen. If you want to try in make sure you have enough skill to not fall and if you do, be careful of where they are pointed. Maybe we should just eliminate scissors altogether- make them illegal to own without a permit!

The idea behind the 1/4 mile for speed records is to make it easier for most areas of the country to host a speed trial event. It is very difficult to find a protected area that is a kilometer in length- not including the run-up and slowdown area at each end of the course. Most rivers have bends in them and large bodies of water get rough. There hasn't been a "kilo event" in Moorehaven, FL in a long while. Right now, if you want to set a kilo record, you have to travel to the northwest......

[mike ross]

Ok Friday has started out and we have had a very passionate presentation by Dean Sutherland on class combination's and direction of Stock Outboarding. Dean did a super job and after looking around the room he had everyone's full attention. Lots of debate and a bunch of stuff to think of going forward. Other than being out of line on Roberts Rule and almost getting ejected from the meeting he did a good job. The SORC is all out in the hall talking . We had a 20ssh parity committe meeting between lunch. Check out the results. B class up next. Will update after we are done today. Mikey

[propnuts]

The minutes read 1 3/8", I'm going to guess perhaps it was 3/4". If not I have one hell of a lot of prop work ahead of me ;)

[Boatracer4fun]

The minutes read 1 3/8", I'm going to guess perhaps it was 3/4". If not I have one hell of a lot of prop work ahead of me ;)

I believe its 1 3/8 for the Sidewinder in 20SSH.

[mike ross]

1 3/8 is correct for the Sidewinder 20ssh Get some test data to the Chairman if you want change. The Yamato has no changes

[propnuts]

I figured if they changed to 3/4" it would have to be over Pavlick and Allen's bloody corpses.

[dholt]

I heard Yamato brass 2 blades were now mandatory, though. In order to level the playing field.

No testing required.

[Racerkyle20]

ALL J, STOCK, AND MOD will be at moses lake in 2014. Wooohooo

[Aussie Steve]

ALL J, STOCK, AND MOD will be at moses lake in 2014. Wooohooo
Awesome I'm booking my room at "The Slopyhog " now

[blueskyracer]

ALL J, STOCK, AND MOD will be at moses lake in 2014. Wooohooo

Thank you for the hard work!

[hshawwpba]

3. Elimination of full butterflies in the Tahatsu D motor

Replacement of the factory installed throttle plates (butterflys) is complicated by the fact that the screws in most foreign carburetors are not sold separately. These factory installed screws are flared so they will not fall out. Removing these screws to change the butterflys damages the threads of the screws and the throttle shaft. There is question regarding the need to replace the factory butterflys with solid ones. The wording in paragraph 5, requires the throttle to automatically go "closed" when released. Kill switches are installed to kill the engine. Back in the olden days there was no kill switch requirement, hence the 'solid butterfly' rule. If an incorrect or damaged screw is used it could fall out and damage the engine. Or worse, it could cause the throttle to jam. The need for solid butterflys no longer exists. The rule is a carryover from the days before kill switches.
Recommendation: Eliminate the second sentence in paragraph 5.

Sorry tahatsu guys this is the dumbest request yet. Quote me all you want. I hope this one fails. I want the names of the people who vote yes. So I can tell them to stop running with scissors while smoking and filling their gas tank.

Brian come on we know your true issue is the Murcury thing, let it go and let the sport grow with new equipment and let's quit the APBA practice of protectionisum of old engines!
Time to move on they all have kill switches these days except for yours MAYBE?

[hshawwpba]

Ok boys and girls. Mikey is locked, cocked, and ready to rock!!!!! I will post the Agenda with the motions and the results as we go. Check with the site throughout the day to see what is happening in your division. The attachment is what we are all using as a guilde. got to go!!! Fast Eddie is in Da-House!!!!!!!:boat:

Has anyone made a motion to kick predent Weber the hell out of office yet?
APBA Board of Directors: 11/7/2010
Follow up Open letter to APBA Board

Another season has just concluded and the continued decline in membership (-12%) and loss of sanctioned events continues under the current leadership.
In my business world the loss of 12% of customers and decline of income from the product the business sells would be a guaranteed departure of the top management. I don’t know how long the Board thinks this can continue or if there is any hope of turning the ship around before it runs aground.
I ask just a few questions:
(1) The President has spent thousands of $$ on a driving school program the past couple years, purchasing boats and equipment and incurring overhead cost that could have better been spent supporting struggling races with reduced cost so the races would generate some income rather than $0.00 for APBA.

QUESTION:
How many new drivers have come from this effort?


(2) The deal cut to purchase tunnel boats from a west coast supplier is now in trouble. There are orders unfilled and questions about product quality issues.

QUESTION:
Who was responsible for reviewing the viability and long term ability of the boat company to ensure this investment of APBA funds were a good business venture? (Who’s budget is paying for this?)

(3) The 30% decline in membership last year added to the 12% this year adds up to 42% of APBA customer decline in 2 years. This, combined with the loss of sanction revenues for the past 2 years must have the APBA income balance sheet bleeding of red ink! (How long has it been since the financial records of APBA have been audited?)


QUESTION:

This week you have the chance to look in the mirror and ask yourself the question that many members of APBA are asking, “HOW MUCH LONGER CAN THE PERSON IN COMMAND CONTINUE and is NOW the time for a change?”

Below for your easy reference and for the new board members information is my letter of concern from last year. I hope this week is the time for action! Not more half- baked ideas that cost APBA $$ and have little to no return on investment.

Respectfully submitted,
Howard Shaw
APBA member #1487
Region 10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
APBA Board of Directors: 3/26/2010

Open letter to APBA Board

As a long time member and paid customer of the APBA organization I feel compelled to write you this letter of concern.
I have been a member since 1963 of APBA paying my dues each year as they escalated from $34.00 a year to today’s rate’s of over $190.00. I have been a race chairmen, commodore, region activity chairman, served on APBA category commission, an approved Referee in all divisions and volunteer for many duties to support boat racing when called upon.
All this comes, as you know with no monetary reward. In fact the 100’s of us that perform these same duties across the country actually pay APBA to have the pleasure to perform these volunteer duties.
APBA gets it income from members, “paying customers” every year as membership’s dues and also from our efforts finding race sites and putting on races that generate sanction income for the ABPA business model.
As a customer of APBA I ask you to please remind President Weber that in any business the customer is king if the business is to survive. Customer satisfaction is paramount for any business that hopes to grow and prosper.
President Weber has shown over the past years that under his leadership that customer satisfaction simply does not exist and the recent decline in business income bears out that fact. The 30% decline in membership, 20% decline in sanctions, along with President Weber’s personal agendas on reversals of agreements, and inability to see the big picture, have lead to lay offs in the office as your customers become disenchanted and go elsewhere to spend their time and monies.
I have been advised that President Weber, when questioned, about the insurance agreement that he did not realize his wife worked for that company awarded the contract. Are you kidding me? Does President Weber think we are all idiots, or is it just more of the issues at hand in the management of the A.P.B.A business.
Boat racing will exist with or without A.P.B.A., there are other options out there in spite of what some would lead you to believe.
I’m sure that if you ask President Weber he would have you believe that the economy has caused this down turn and you can’t lay this at his feet.
I keep coming back to a statement that President Weber made at the Detroit national meeting that “he hoped he was not going to be the last APBA president”. Was this premonition on his part or did he know what many members are now finding out that President Weber has no customer satisfaction skills or presence and his management style is simply “my way or the highway” dictatorship.
The future of APBA is truly in your hands as APBA board of directors. Due to the fact that the paying customers (members) no longer vote in the APBA president, you as the board now control that selection process and we the customers are out of the process.
I conclude this with the hope that you as the Board will take the needed steps to improve the customer satisfaction efforts of the APBA and let your paying customers, once again have a voice that is heard as well as the chance to provide a racing series or venue as a part of APBA without needless interference by a third party because he/she disagrees with the process they have designed to run the series/events. If you choose to do nothing and disregard this letter that’s fine, again, it is your choice to
change the coarse APBA is on or let it run down the current track of extinction due to lack of customer service, high cost, diminishing sanctions and declining customer base.
There are some good people at your disposal who understand customer satisfaction and opening the door to all groups or racing series that will bring new members and fans to APBA. It simply will take a President willing to open his/her eyes and listen to all customers that wish to pay for the privilege of being part of the APBA family and support the growth of boat racing for everyone.

[pro350hydro]

That is only a 5 hour drive for us. The wife says we will be there!. Which park do they race at for nationals in Moses Lake??

Cascade Park

[pro350hydro]

ALL J, STOCK, AND MOD will be at moses lake in 2014. Wooohooo


Thats great! Thank you for all your hard work

[brian]

We need the updates Mikey! You are my only hope. I am sick at home with a sick girl and it is Ashten's birthday. I need my boat racing info.

[Affholter66]

To ALL who participated..Thank-You very much!!!

[raw]

Could someone please explain why the sorc has a problem with mounting a steering bar gas tank on the OMC A motor.Is it legal to run a steering bar tank on a Sidewinder and a Mercury but not the OMC?Why not?. Ross Webster #12-ce

[mike ross]

ok boys and girls here is the final agenda. A couple of points since the last posting of the agenda. The A parity committee had a meeting late yesterday and pulled the restrictor on the carb for the Sidewinder for 45 days. They are also headed back to the lake in Florida soon for more data so they can revisit the new results. Stay tuned!!! Dean Sutherlands Class reduction motion was brought back up with an advisory committee for rules and a 2014 completion date. A lot of the items in here will be going to ballot so make sure you vote. You can't whine if your not voting!!!! See ya at Wakefield!!!! Mikey

[Gunjumper]

Because Ross, that would make sense... Duh! GL

[BP125V]

Because Ross, that would make sense... Duh! GL

this issue gets brought up every few years and everytime Ed Runne recommends against it since the gas tank would be hanging from the steering bar brackets which are attached to the engine by the bolts that are holding the power head on. In his mind it is an issue of safety and apparently others agree with him.

[raw]

I do not understand,the commision was sent the data sheets on the bolts in question .Those bolts will hold 300lbs there should not be a problem with a 5lbs gas tank.This makes no sense! So now you can replace the grade 8 bolts holding on the gearcase to any bolt(brass or aluiminum).This is the reason I quit as a commisioner it seems as though common sense gets left at the door once the meeting begins. Ross

[Haüenstein]

I do not understand,the commision was sent the data sheets on the bolts in question .Those bolts will hold 300lbs there should not be a problem with a 5lbs gas tank.This makes no sense! So now you can replace the grade 8 bolts holding on the gearcase to any bolt(brass or aluiminum).This is the reason I quit as a commisioner it seems as though common sense gets left at the door once the meeting begins. Ross

F=ma... an A rig weighs about 350 pounds.

[BP125V]

I do not understand,the commision was sent the data sheets on the bolts in question .Those bolts will hold 300lbs there should not be a problem with a 5lbs gas tank.This makes no sense! So now you can replace the grade 8 bolts holding on the gearcase to any bolt(brass or aluiminum).This is the reason I quit as a commisioner it seems as though common sense gets left at the door once the meeting begins. Ross

Ross,

It is not a matter of the 1/4-20 powerhead bolts failing, it is the bolts stripping out of the threads in the relatively soft aluminum in the power head. The same logic applies to the gearcase - the bolts themselves are not going to break but they will strip out of the threads that are tapped into the bottom of the relatively soft aluminum of the tower. Also, keep in mind how many times these engines are assembled and disassembled over the past 25 - years slowly weakening the threads. I hold my breath every time I put a gearcase on one of my OMC's.

If the powerheads were attached with bolts AND nuts I'm sure it would be an entirely different matter.

by the way - the original gearcase bolts are not grade 8 and they don't need to be due to what they are threaded into.

[raw]

If the threads were such a big issue why wasn't proposal #2 passed to allow to replace the bolts with studs and nylon lock nuts so one could get rid of the stupid wire holding the bolts from falling out.The threads are getting stripped out of the block because people are overtightening the bolts so the holes line up for the stupid wire.Makes no sense. Ross

[Mrs blueskyracer]

Mike, thanks for your great job on the reporting of the annual meeting for those of us who were unable to attend. It is much appreciated.

[pav225]

I figured if they changed to 3/4" it would have to be over Pavlick and Allen's bloody corpses.

Come on now...I'd be ok with a change if it made logical sense :-)

Right now there is great parity between the Y302s and Y80s, so why mess with the recipe if there is not a compelling reason to change??

I'll support changes if they are backed by facts and data. The push to move 20ssH to 3/4" wasn't supported by either.

- Mike

[daveracerdsh]

The commission voted to make it legal for the D owners to solder up the holes in the butterflies if memory serves me correct. There will also be a parity meeting in the very near future ( I hope) to discuss raising the Tohatsu height to 1/2. Racerdave

[j hydro racer]

Wanted to thank the APBA Historical Society and The J Committee for awarding me the J scholarship. I am very honored to have been awarded this and I wish i could have been there to accept it in person but i was able to view it on hydroracer.
Thanks again to everyone
-Johnny

[Matt Dagostino]

Right now there is great parity between the Y302s and Y80s, so why mess with the recipe if there is not a compelling reason to change??

I'll support changes if they are backed by facts and data. The push to move 20ssH to 3/4" wasn't supported by either.

- Mike

That's your opinion. And you know what they say about opinions!!:rolleyes: A big part of last years move to lower the Yamato 80 height to 3/4" was to make the NEW AVAILABLE 302 the MOTOR OF CHOICE in the class so both newbies and veterans wouldn't be scrounging for KILLER 40 year old Yamato 80's like you have. DO we really want to be racing ANTIQUE motors forever?????? Just my opinion.

Matt
ps.........you looked good in that suit at the banquet. You clean up well!!

[Big Don]

hmmmmmm...I think you pushed more the point that it would save people from cooking their engines. And I replied, it's not an issue for us. But then again maybe I heard wrong.

…as far as parity is concerned...I don't think you can ever have true parity in any class...you can get close, but someone or something will always have an advantage. Unfortunately we have it in all our classes.

Mr Hearn is correct though in the fact that when both side are unhappy you know you are close.

[Matt Dagostino]

hmmmmmm...I think you pushed more the point that it would save people from cooking their engines. And I replied, it's not an issue for us. But then again maybe I heard wrong.


I guess at times "i don't necessarily agree with everything i say" either........

See you at the Antique Meet in Wakefield this summer........:boat:

Matt
ps....Hydroracer streamed the HOC presentation live and Val thought Donny was the star of the big show!! See ya!

[raw]

Mike and Don. Can you guys run at a 1/2 inch all the time on any coarse in any water conditions.If yes Bravo to you! Mike if you need real world data I can send you a whole cupboard full of scuffed up pistons.The 20 class has really picked up here in Canada but every winter I have to fix 1 or 2 overheated engines including my own last year and I have over 20 years experience with these motors.We have guys running tell tale water hoses up the side of their boats to keep from frying motors.Do we really whant a full feld of guys looking down at a water hose and not watching ahead or behind them on the way to the first turn.Is it fair to keep the rule the way it is because it's not a problem for a handful of guys that have it figured out.What about the 90 or so others who are at risk of frying their motors do they not matter.How many more blocks and pistons do we need to screw up before we fix the problem.What is your solution for the masses so I can pass it on to the folkes up here that are getting tired of paying me to have to fix their motors.I fear if I don't give them a solution soon they will give up and Quit!.This is not a personal attack against you guys,but I need answers to a problem that I feel does exist you guys don't so maybe you can help us out. Thanks Ross

[pav225]

Ross,
Send me the pistons. I will gladly use them!

My solution for you and everyone else is ADJUST your boat. I'm pretty sure that 20ssH did not always have a height restriction and some guys used to run the prop shaft almost parallel with the bottom of the boat. So I apologize if I seem stubborn about 1/2" being able to work.

Here are a few things you can do to get better cooling:
1. Put a tunnel in the bottom of the boat
2. Trim 1/8" off the full length of your airtraps
3. Get a bigger prop

Hopefully that will help you get the cooling you need and eliminate the need for running water hoses up the side of the boat.

Let me know how those changes work. If they don't, I will be happy to help more in order to get your boats/motors to cool.

- Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

Mike and Don. Can you guys run at a 1/2 inch all the time on any coarse in any water conditions.If yes Bravo to you! Mike if you need real world data I can send you a whole cupboard full of scuffed up pistons.The 20 class has really picked up here in Canada but every winter I have to fix 1 or 2 overheated engines including my own last year and I have over 20 years experience with these motors.We have guys running tell tale water hoses up the side of their boats to keep from frying motors.Do we really whant a full feld of guys looking down at a water hose and not watching ahead or behind them on the way to the first turn.Is it fair to keep the rule the way it is because it's not a problem for a handful of guys that have it figured out.What about the 90 or so others who are at risk of frying their motors do they not matter.How many more blocks and pistons do we need to screw up before we fix the problem.What is your solution for the masses so I can pass it on to the folkes up here that are getting tired of paying me to have to fix their motors.I fear if I don't give them a solution soon they will give up and Quit!.This is not a personal attack against you guys,but I need answers to a problem that I feel does exist you guys don't so maybe you can help us out. Thanks Ross

Wish you were at Seattle last year to support my effort to lower the 20ssh class height! Not only would it have helped the 302 position itself more prominately in the 20ssh class but it would have saved burnt up pistons. I was a major sponsor of lowering the CSH height a few years ago and not only did Montoya's piston sales dramatically decline after the lower height was adopted in the class but the 302 nudged a little closer to being the Motor Of Choice in the CSH class over the Antique model 102 .......... The problem in the 20ssh debate last year was that the 'audience' was stacked against me and we lost the vote......but that's politics and the democratic way. I tried. Maybe if you bring a few of the Canadians to the National Meeting in Chicago next year we can get it passed! Just a thought.:angel:

I know we are straying from the bigger picture here but all the little things do add up in time!!

Matt
Region 4 Commissioner
ps...........i run at 1/2" but it is a juggling act to do it. As my friend 225-V states it is a formula to make it work. My argument is why have to run on the 'edge' when a slight reduction in height will assure you pump adequate water. And it will be consistant with the CSH height to help the drivers running both classes with the same boat and motor!! Ok, i am done now!

[pav225]

Ross and all 20ssH Drivers,

One more thing...if your motor chronically overheats, make sure the head is still flat. This will help ensure a good seal against the block.

If you have any doubts, send it to TJ. He can check for flatness and fix it if needed.

- Mike

[Big Don]

Ross I can't speak for Mike, all I can tell you is we never had issues pumping in the past. Several years we had a new boat that we cooked 3 engines with, including our best engine. (Unfortunately that engine has never been the same) we got rid of that boat and have had no issues since.

Do we change the setup? Sure, if it’s really rough or the wind is blowing of course we do. That is just part of racing.

I can tell you we run at max height most of the time.

We do have some props that pump better than others. We adjust accordingly.

As far as the looking down at the hose on the way to the first turn. Half the guys we race with don’t look anyways…and the ones that do…you just know that they know you are there before they chop you.

[raw]

Mike,you are speaking to me as one vet. to another.I have the skills and tools to make all the adjustments you talk about.What about the new guys don,t own a wood plane or know how to use one.None of them have the know how to put tunnel in the bottom of the boat.I don,t have the time to do it for them as I coach hockey (and still play ,old farts club).I have the tools to check heads and all were flat.Do you reuse head gaskets or use anew one everytime as I do.It is also critical that the sleeves stick proud of the block 2 or 3 thou. to make a good seal to the head.Mike you did not answer my question if you can run at a 1/2 all the time everywhere in all water conditions.I run at 5/8 all the time safely.I recommend to all newbies to start at 3/4 to be safe but when they go on this site and see the national champ say they have no problems that scares me because the newbies don't understand the hours of testing ,boat adjustments as you say,the number of props as you say,to get to where they are.Don admits that most are not willing to give that kind of effort(spendig one's last dollar).Why does it have to be so difficult?Why not put it to ballot and let the participants decide if they are willing to hack up their boats, cylinder heads,and buy new props or pull out a1/4 inch or less.I know I would gladly pull my 1/8 stick rather than hack up my boat.

[pav225]

Ross,
I'll use your quote to answer the questions below...


Mike,you are speaking to me as one vet. to another.I have the skills and tools to make all the adjustments you talk about.What about the new guys don,t own a wood plane or know how to use one.
That's pretty sad. All 4 of my kids can use a wood plane. The youngest is 4.5 years old! If they can't do it, get someone to help at the race site.

None of them have the know how to put tunnel in the bottom of the boat.I don,t have the time to do it for them as I coach hockey (and still play ,old farts club).
Good. I work a ton of hours, travel for work, coach basketball, baseball, and soccer. Oh, and I have 4 boys that break stuff every day!...so no sympathy from me regarding lack of time. But I do agree the tunnel would be a challenge.


I have the tools to check heads and all were flat.Do you reuse head gaskets or use anew one everytime as I do.It is also critical that the sleeves stick proud of the block 2 or 3 thou. to make a good seal to the head.
I will resuse a headgasket if needed (at a race site or testing) but I prefer to put on a new one. GREAT point on the sleeves!


Mike you did not answer my question if you can run at a 1/2 all the time everywhere in all water conditions.
Glad you asked again...I don't run 1/2" all the time. As a great mentor Jerry Gravesen used to say "to finish first, first you must finish". Whatever your boat is, run at a height that works for you. That could mean 5/8" or 3/4". I don't think you will see a huge difference in course speed. Start at 3/4" and work your way up if you like


I run at 5/8 all the time safely.I recommend to all newbies to start at 3/4 to be safe EXCELLENT IDEA!but when they go on this site and see the national champ say they have no problems that scares me because the newbies don't understand the hours of testing ,boat adjustments as you say,the number of props as you say,to get to where they are. Yes, we work our butts off! and I won't apologize for that! When possible, we test after every race (while others sit in chairs and scoff) and are always trying to learn new things. Always remember that this is Racing


Don admits that most are not willing to give that kind of effort(spendig one's last dollar).Why does it have to be so difficult? It's racing and people will always be willing to work hard to win. Probably similar to sports...why do kids have to be on travel leagues from the momment they can walk?? Crazy!Why not put it to ballot and let the participants decide if they are willing to hack up their boats, cylinder heads,and buy new props or pull out a1/4 inch or less.I know I would gladly pull my 1/8 stick rather than hack up my boat.
Again, there wasn't a height rule in the past and guys set-up their boats to be raceable and pump water. You still are responsible for your own set-up, that's part of racing. I recommend trimming traps and/or dropping motor to 3/4" to start. I know of a few CSH drivers who quit CSH when the height went to 3/4" because they didn't want to rework their props. So either way you impact people and changes need to be made or money spent


I'll make an offer to help the new guys. If they have a boat that is not working well or pumping water, I will help make it better. I know it will be a long drive, but we have a few early season races that you guys could attend and I will help them dial in boats. We'll bring all the tools, just be ready to work. NO CAPT, This does not apply to you!

I'm off to work on race stuff! Later.

[dholt]

Hey Mike,

Can you come on down to Cincy when you get a chance.

I've haven't ever raced at 1/2"...and that's with 3 distinctly different boats...dozens of props and 3 different gearcases over the past 11 years.


I'm too slow for you boys up there in Cheesehead land.

D.

[pav225]

We may be at Sweeney's in March...

Or come on up to Pell Lake or DePue.

- Mike

[pav225]

Hey Mike,

Can you come on down to Cincy when you get a chance.

I've haven't ever raced at 1/2"...and that's with 3 distinctly different boats...dozens of props and 3 different gearcases over the past 11 years.


I'm too slow for you boys up there in Cheesehead land.

D.

I completely missed this!

Ross, let everyone read that a 4 time National Champ in 20ssH runs below 1/2" and always has. So, let the new guys know that you can run below 1/2" and still WIN!

Dana, glad you brought this up.

Now out to the shop...

- Mike

[raw]

Mike,I was fully aware the 4 time champ cannot run at the limit as I helped him drop his motor down the last time we raced together.Don most of the new guys up here only have one or two props and even if they had more they do not have the 30 years experience of reading the water to adjust accordingly.Don and Mike did you guys have to rework your whole propbox for the drop in CSH? I spoke with some top runners in CSH and they said they did not make any prop changes.Is there anyone out there that can run at the max all the time with no risk.Do the 302's run at the max? Peeters,Perman,JMK,Kyle Lewis,Billy Allen, feel free to join in on the fun.Mike,I am not asking for your sympathy or aplogies for working hard?Once again this is not a personal attack.I am trying prevent needlessly burning up parts by inexperienced people we so desperately need to keep around to race with us.If the 4 time champ and A.J. (runs at 3/4) can run good at lower and in your words "makes little difference on course speed" what is the down side? Once again I ask why does it have to be so difficult?Please do not refer to some guy who ran without a restriction years ago.I need to sell this to the guys(and gals sorry) of today and the future.

[pav225]

Ross,
I don't view it as a personal attack at all. All good questions!

We've been friends for years and will continue to be even if we disagree.

1/2" is the limit. There used to be no limit and we didn't burn up Yamatos. Why? Because people knew that they had to run a set-up that allowed motors to cool. On some boats that was much higher than 1/2" below the bottom. If a boat doesn't like to run at 1/2", drop it to 3/4". Just because the limit is 1/2" doesn't mean you have to run at that height.

So many other factors contribute to motors overheating beside just motor height. You could be at 3/4" and still have a problem. At the end of the day, you need to find where your motor runs best on your boat.

- Mike

[14-H]

Wish you were at Seattle last year to support my effort to lower the 20ssh class height! ****!

Did I miss your motion?

[hydroid]

Ross/Mike/others, great discussion, thx for sharing insight.
All of last season in 20, I ran restricted 302 at 3/4. My philosophy, I have much to learn about driving/props/starts/passing/winning/losing before going to 1/2, risking frying my engine. Many variables to dial in first.
That shld be message to newbies first couple of years. I also ran CSH, pulled the r-plate, same height. 2 classes, maximize value!
Wish this theme could have started/continues in 'Technical' forum as a reference. Ross has always been generous w advice.
Erik, TORC
PS: how about creating a technical reference on basic topics written by vets eg: prop heights, 302 carb/jet adjustment, hull lift, tuck in/out, checking for flat heads, when to re-ring,etc...the basics as reference guide,...SO's own wikipedia. We weren't all born w wrenches in hand, but willing to learn. Would HR be up for creating a permanent file/forum?...If 6-8 vets each took one small topic, submit to/for peer comment, the database could be built quickly over 2 years. This could be handed out to new club members when they first join the sport/buy new eqpmnt, a simple guide, and remain on HR as a reference. Not looking for the secrets, but lets help newbies get up the learning curve faster when they join, during the 'honeymoon period'.

[Aussie Steve]

I ran at 1/2 every race , only when I tucked to much to compensate for weather it would steam but 1/2 shim behind the mounting bracket to move the motor further back from transom and it would start to drink again . 302

[pav225]

Ross/Mike/others, great discussion, thx for sharing insight.
a technical reference on basic topics written by vets eg: prop heights, 302 carb/jet adjustment, hull lift, tuck in/out, checking for flat heads, when to re-ring,etc...the basics as reference guide,...SO's own wikipedia. '.

Erik,
This is an EXCELLENT idea!

We'll need to put an outline together, but already I am thinking of:
- Straightening a bottom
- Turn fin set up
- Motor set-up on boat
- Basic motor maintenance
- etc, etc, etc

Perhaps we can have a few teams cover different topics. I will discuss with our Club and Chicago Paul. We can probably use our "new" club boats to actually demonstrate lessons on.

To ensure we cover relevant topics, I think it would be good to ask new folks what are some of the best areas to focus on.

Thanks for the Great idea!

- Mike

[22W]

Erik,
This is an EXCELLENT idea!

We'll need to put an outline together, but already I am thinking of:
- Straightening a bottom
- Turn fin set up
- Motor set-up on boat
- Basic motor maintenance
- etc, etc, etc


Great point Mike! A common new guy problem spot that is easily overlooked and can lead to drastic handling issues. Come to think of it, I have seen a couple of veterans miss this one!

[Matt Dagostino]

Did I miss your motion?

Pour another cup of coffee Mr Chairman.........Seattle is where i got shot down. I did not see the point of bringing the issue up again at Detroit.

Maybe next time i will have Jerry David's and Bob Goller speak to the issue in front of the SORC. Perhaps they will trump the gallery. I personally think the issue is many of the TOP Yamato 80's are concerned if the class height is lowered to match the CSH 3/4" height the Yamato 302 will have the edge on the Antique model 80????

Mr Joe Pater made that arguement to the SORC in Seattle when 'giving his opinion' to the SORC. Again, we are a democratic body and i respect the SORC's decisions. Butttttt, if enough members wish to lower the height and VOICE that opinion only then will it will happen.........

Ed Runne and i had a nice chat a couple months back and questioned where the CSH and 20ssh Classes would be if the Yamato 302 were made the Motor Of Choice say 10 years ago........... we contend that we would have grown the classes the same way CSH/CSR grew when we buried the 30-H in 1990 after the 102 established traction and proved what a great motor it was from both a performance and affordability position. Sooner or later the Yamato 80 and 102 workhorse motors will be nudged into retirement, hopefully sooner than later.

It seems that if a plan like Dean's or others is to succeed, at some point equipment issues like this will need to be alligned with class re-structuring to 'level the playing field'............

" Not a sermon, just a thought".....................

The Capt.
ps............225-V. Come on down! I will leave the light on for ya! We need all the help we can get down here!:wallbang:

[pav225]

Forum: APBA SO Category Chairman's Forum 01-02-2011, 07:59 AM
Replies: 124 SO class reduction proposal, next steps
Views: 9,477 Posted By Matt Dagostino
Cooling

Hi Mike
The issue is more than cooling. I have no problem at 1/2"............

See you in Detroit....

Matt

[Rocky Peterson]

You could always get a Sidewinder and drop it down ....to lets say 1 3/8 or 2in. or WATHEVER!!!! Rocky :opps:

[ricochet112]

You could always get a Sidewinder and drop it down ....to lets say 1 3/8 or 2in. or WATHEVER!!!! Rocky :opps:

4.5", just for you, lol:rofl:

[seanp3]

Mike,I was fully aware the 4 time champ cannot run at the limit as I helped him drop his motor down the last time we raced together.Don most of the new guys up here only have one or two props and even if they had more they do not have the 30 years experience of reading the water to adjust accordingly.Don and Mike did you guys have to rework your whole propbox for the drop in CSH? I spoke with some top runners in CSH and they said they did not make any prop changes.Is there anyone out there that can run at the max all the time with no risk.Do the 302's run at the max? Peeters,Perman,JMK,Kyle Lewis,Billy Allen, feel free to join in on the fun.Mike,I am not asking for your sympathy or aplogies for working hard?Once again this is not a personal attack.I am trying prevent needlessly burning up parts by inexperienced people we so desperately need to keep around to race with us.If the 4 time champ and A.J. (runs at 3/4) can run good at lower and in your words "makes little difference on course speed" what is the down side? Once again I ask why does it have to be so difficult?Please do not refer to some guy who ran without a restriction years ago.I need to sell this to the guys(and gals sorry) of today and the future.



I do not use the same prop in CSH as when we ran at 1/2". The prop I used then is still good and has almost the same straight away speed when we ran at 1/2". However, it is now a dog in the corners. I haven't raced that prop since the height was changed to 3/4".

As far as what height we run at now...... I try to keep it as close to min depth as possible. Not every boat is the same and you have to get to know your boat well to know where you can run at. It can vary a bit from one race course to another, and from different water conditions. I had one boat I had to consistantly run deeper than an inch. I found out later it had a flaw in the bottom about 20 inches in front of the gearfoot. I replaced the bottom and was able to run at 1/2" after that. Its very important the back 36" or so of the bottom be very flat. Any slight contour of the bottom in that area can affect the cooling of these Yamatos.

At Pro Nats we have quite a bit of testing time before race day. When we stick Guedo in that Altralite a lot of what we do is figure out what setup will work to get the 4 laps in. As said earlier if you can't finish you can't win. Our first year at Depue I think we ran close to 1" deep. Since then, with testing new props and setup changes we have reduced that height. But, that is a fairly big course and the boats air out quite well. Bottom line is you need to test. The new guy should error on the safe side...... run it deep if there is any doubt.

There is no downside for a new guy to be running a little on the deep side. It gets him seat time in the boat. A good setup in 20SSH at 1/2" is not going to be that much different at 3/4"

[Matt Dagostino]

A good setup in 20SSH at 1/2" is not going to be that much different at 3/4"

I think the midwest guys might argue that point. Just seems that if we lowered it to 3/4" to match the CSH class all water issues dissapear. No need to contour bottoms, fix air traps, buy trick props, etc etc. Plus Ross and Dana can throw away those hoses they run down the side of the combing to watch for steam!! This 'banter' reminds me of the days when we were trying to institute transom heights back in the 80's. Everyone has a opinion with many good points pro and con. Being 'against' something on Hydroracer shouldn't be perceived as being negative or a whiner........all 'opinions' matter and often help balance the scales.

Say hey to Dan for me!!

matt

[Big Don]

I’ve come up with a way to save all of us time and money…

Here is how it would work. We all show up at the race and put our names in the class we want to “race” and we have someone pull a name and that is the winner. No need to set up the rig, heck you probably don’t even have to have a rig, no fuel needed, no props needs, less expenses altogether, no worries about cooking your engine. .. I know we could probably do this without ever leaving our homes but then we wouldn’t be able to see all our friends, so I think we should do it at the race site.

The other option is we don’t pull a name at all and we just announce that everyone is a winner and then there should be no hard feelings.
Then again…I’m sure we could find some reason as to why it was not fair or that someone had an unfair advantage.

As far as ½ or ¾…. How about we put the 80 & 102 at ¾, the 302 at 1” and the Sidewinder at 1 ½. Reason for the 302 at 1”…it seems people are concerned that the 302 will have the advantage if they are at the same height as the 80 & 102. We can always adjust if we need to with the parity committee.

I don’t have a clue on 302 heights but I have heard the same arguments with the 302 that we are hearing with the 80’s… I can’t run at ½ and then I hear there are some that can.

Matt you see to think that by lowering the height to ¾ it would give an advantage to the 302’s????? You working on the 302 program? Mind sharing why you think they would have the advantage? Remember this is not about giving anyone an advantage (well other than those of you that can’t run at ½) it’s about trying to find parity and a pretty level playing field.

[Matt Dagostino]

Matt you see to think that by lowering the height to ¾ it would give an advantage to the 302’s????? You working on the 302 program? Mind sharing why you think they would have the advantage? Remember this is not about giving anyone an advantage (well other than those of you that can’t run at ½) it’s about trying to find parity and a pretty level playing field.

It is "Smokin" Joe Pater who made the statement publically in Seattle that if 3/4" were implemented in the 20ssh class that his Yamato 80's would be uncompetitive! He said that to the SORC. I am not convinced he is correct but i am sure it will slow the Yamato 80 down a bit and of course pump lots of water through the motor.

The parity issue is a seperate issue of course. You know my thoughts on Parity...........i do not subscribe to it and believe each class 'eventually' should have a motor of choice as is the case in the J Cataglory and that prefered motor should be the one that is new and available if possible. Parity at best creates 'indecision' and creates motor wars! Just my position.

My FEELING is from a performance standpoint, dropping the 20ssh height will help the 302 a bit and hurt the Yamato 80 a bit.............but i know for sure at 3/4" of an inch below the bottom water will flow and Montoya's piston sales for Yamato 80's and 302's will decline!!:clever:

.............................................
'I don't necessarily agree with everything i say either'

[B Walker]

100% agree on "designated motor of choice" rather than an attempt at parity as long as the motor of choice is available new or reconditioned.

Parity attempts only create confusion, unnecessary rule making, and dont do anything to help the sport grow.

At its worst, attempts at parity are little more than more "trailer box protectionism" that I believe to be a major factor in getting Stock Outboard into its present difficulties.

Bonus: Designated motor of choice will free up equipment to new members at reduced cost that may not be able to compete nationally but will get them hooked on the sport. After the new member learns how to drive and make a good start, they can move the equipment on and subsidise the cost of the top shelf equipment.

BW

[pav225]

What is the "motor of choice" for 20ssH...Y302 or SW20?

Who gets to decide that?

- Mike

[Matt Dagostino]

What is the "motor of choice" for 20ssH...Y302 or SW20?

Who gets to decide that?

- Mike

Yes sir...........that is the 64 million dollar question. To be continued........:ziipit:

[B Walker]

Well, I think were making progress scince you did not even put the Y-80 on the list Mike.

:D

I dont hold my cards as close to the chest as the Capt but I have less skin in the game too.

The Sidewinder 20 has alot of work to do to beat the value proposition of the 302 being used in 2 classes with the simple addition of a restrictor plate. It doesnt even need to be mentioned the 302 is half the price.

I think "what to do with the SW 20" will be a long and difficult conversation.

I have some suggestions for the SW 20 but am not yet ready to put in writing forever here on HR.net all my thoughts on the SW 20 issue.

I will say if I was going to buy a Sidewinder right now, it would be a 20.... even with its semi-limbo status currently.

BW

[Rocky Peterson]

Not the Sidewinder, not this year anyway, now that its been "BURIED" to 1 3/8":clever: Rocky

[pav225]

Well, I think were making progress scince you did not even put the Y-80 on the list Mike.

:D



Personally, I think the Y80 and Y302 should both be the motors of choice.

There is great parity between the Y80 and Y302 right now. Either motor can win on any size course. Because of this, I don't think that formula should be messed with. Messing with one of APBA's biggest and most competitive classes will only tend to drive people out of it.

I do not believe that having a new motor will drive people to any class. If that was true, BSH would be booming.

We have helped 4 people start in 20ssH over the last 5 years...ALL with Yamato 80 motors that they bought for $1200 or less. They would not have bought a Y302 or SW for more money. Many can argue that new motors get people into racing...I can only comment on what we have seen work in our Region...Innexpensive Y80s.

As far as the Y80 being an "antique", I don't think that is relevant at all. You can still buy motors and all parts required. Its a GREAT, INNEXPENSIVE motor that will run for many, many years. To me that is what is required for a class.

Some may comment that "I am protecting my trailer box" if I own every make of Yamato, which one am I protecting? What I am trying to do is protect what I feel is the best class in APBA. Folks can get started with cheap Y80s or buy a Y302 if they prefer and be very competitive quickly. They will also have the option to buy a SW20 and I think Runne and the parity committee are doing the best they can to ensure it is introduced at the right speed.

- Mike Pavlick

[Big Don]

Rocky and anyone else that cares….

Here is how we came up with that height. BTW…I suggested even throwing some weight in and it was voted down. (Our SORC Chairman wouldn’t even agree to it)

Ed Runne was present when we were having the parity meeting. He felt he could live with that height as long as we came back and looked at it again if we decide we went too far or handicap it further if needed. He also agreed to try and come to the Midwest for a test session to see if we can get some better test data.

There are at least Two (2) 25ssr boats in the country running at the current runabout height rule of 1” below the bottom of the boat at speeds between 64 and 65 mph. That assimilates to a hydro with the sidewinder 20 pushing a hydro between 67 and 68 mph without much testing, so that would be only dropping it another 3/8. So we felt that was as good place to start.

Matt D also said there was some testing done a Jessup and during testing on Friday the Sidewinder was 1.5/2.0 MPH faster than his 20 rig with his 80. He also said that during the race he was faster than the Sidewinder. Not sure what happened there.

Even though it’s a 20 Hydro committee only, we did talk about the runabouts and I believe everyone agreed that there was no reason to touch the runabout. The reason I mention that is we want to do everything possible to not have to restrict the engine with CC’s or anything like that. Main reason it would mess up the runabout. That could mean the Hydro might have to end up having a restrictor if we find we can’t accomplish parity with height.

[Rocky Peterson]

That sounds like some REAL good test data to drop a motor almost a full1" Rocky:rolleyes:

[pav225]

We all need to remember that it's a starting point.

The worst thing that could happen to the class is to have a few folks able to buy a new motor and then have 3 mph on the rest of the field. That would drive a lot of people out of 20ssH...most likely to B Mod.

Runne was there and I do believe that the team is working for parity to keep all 3 motors competitive. They all realize we need to start somewhere.

From what I understand, as more test data is available, the team will make further refinements (up or down) to maintain parity between the motors.

There were some suggestions for the A class and SW motor which I believe will be tested soon. Its probably the best process we have. Suggest changes and then gather actual test data to refine further.

- Mike