What do can you do ? ( on the main forum this time )

[will350]

If you go to buy and sell , you'll find the start of this .
How I got it here is ? ? ? ? a complete mystery to me like many
things in the universe . I can only hope there's a picture here . Any
comments-suggestions-observations-opinions , are welcome . Criticism ( as I said in my "other " post) is welcome as it may lead you in a direction you hadn't thought of .
( try not to make me cry , LOLing is OK , I'm not real sensative)
It's a conceptual thought on how to stay in . Not as uncomfortable as it looks ( I've tried the laydown position and decided that if I got
down in there like that , I'd have to spend the weekend .
If I was as young and spry as I used to be , no prob but not now )
My thought is two hands to steer ( levers) and hold on with , one foot to throttle with and one foot to help jam yourself in with .
I know it looks goofy but then waayyyyyy back folks thought the earth
was flat . R-14 Will

[David_L6]

That the driver's position in that AeroCat thing that Tim Butts built in the mid '80s. It didn't look to me like he was having a very easy time getting in and out of it either.

I've also seen a PRO boat with driving position similar to that. Some guy named Kirts was experimenting with it...

[Ron Hill]

Did you take the post off buy and sell??? I wasn't "FLAMING" you...just asking...

I know I'm going to be "CASTERATED", right here, right now....

But, I think a frame like the quarter midget, side nets, to keep the other off... and a cowling made with the FIRST CAPSULE FLARE (To keep the water out of the cockpit) could work... Would not require seat belts...

[sam]

Will the boat that OMC had Entrop make for Walin to use on the 130-ish speed record runs used steering and driver's postion like that .... with foot throttle.

The foot throttle was reworked to hand throttle after Walin
hit a wave and stuffed. They thought he had accidently
stomped the throttle with his foot when he tensed for the wave.


My personal opinion of your set up is that it does not
allow the driver much range of motion to move their
head to see other boats compared to kneeling or laying
on your belly. Vision will be impared and driving would
have to be so much more cautious that speed would be
greatly reduced or accidents will increase.

You could look to the side, but never see any farther
back than your transom. Kneeling or on your belly you
can swivel your head and see more. Just my thought.

[Jeff Lytle]

The idea would work if you got the CG right. In such small boats, even 350's, that might be tough to do without adding weight.

Sam's point about your visability is something to think about too. Think about it this way: The best time to check out who is behind you is just when you are either going through, or exiting a corner. You probably won't be able to do this because your sight line will be totally blocked by the skid fin spray. Rear view mirrors would help, but they are in no way as good as taking a direct look in either direction, left or right.

Davids right, Danny Kirts was toying with the same sort of thing before the mandtory capsure thing went into effect in 500CCH. It wasn't a 3/4 recline, but more of a sitting up position.
He was driving an Apel at the time and didn't make the full sit down capsule conversion with the boat cause as he said, he "Wasn't ready to lose yet". His CG was much further forward as the boat was much longer. Perhaps Jim Apel can fill us in on the ideas both he and Danny shared on this. The boat was converted back to the laydown position after a crash I guess he felt could have been prevented (?) or, perhaps he felt the injuries he sustained would have been less had he not been sitting up.

I saw his boat run in Fulton N.Y.

To describe the way it ran, and the speed; It was scary Kirts fast.

[will350]

I "reposted " here and until flames actually come out of
my computer .........................
I hadn't thought about a roll cage because of the "get out " factor if you were upside down although it would a good attachment point for a roll-over air bag . ( something else to ponder and a whole new thread ) A cowling of some sort is a foregone conclusion . Haven't made a decision on shape or strength .
The vision point is well taken . I tried this with a full face hat .
No way that's going to happen . I could be more upright . That would
help . Laying on my stomach is totally out of the picture for me due to a rather "delicate" condition . I run kneel down and the field of view is very good so I understand your point .
Any and all opinions are welcome . Thank you R-14 Will

[Jakeroub]

just a couple of questions/comments...

First, looks like a ton of weight in the back of the boat, a good thing until the bow starts to pick up too much. What do you do when the bow starts to come up? Also, when you start getting onto plane would you be able to see over the bow?

Second, I think you'd have a hard time to get the feeling for the throttle. I tried driving a foot-steered homemade go cart this fall and flipped the thing. I just couldnt get my feet to respnd correctly.

Third, I think a foot throttle would hard to keep steady in big waves.

Just questions here. I'm sure with enough practice you could get it figured out.

Jake B.

[Ron Hill]

To me, this is why I was heading this way for my FOAM BOAT CONCEPT. Any added weight, wind resistance will make the rif a non factor. In a ONE DESIGNED CLASS....

I want to make the chine large enough, that you would spin before you rolled. The roll cage, will not have a top...exit through the top or front or back, just not the sides..


Pad the aluminum roll bars...

Post some pictures of your other MAGICIAL STUFF....

[will350]

I'm sort of surprised no one has mentioned that black
lump behind me .
I think that I'll be be able to move fore and aft some .
Maybe enough , maybe not . Probably a " T&E" thing .
There is at least one rig ( a laydown ) around here that
runs a foot throttle . Seems to be OK . I'm usually a WOT
sort ( unless I fall out ) Will


Originally posted by Jakeroub
just a couple of questions/comments...

First, looks like a ton of weight in the back of the boat, a good thing until the bow starts to pick up too much. What do you do when the bow starts to come up? Also, when you start getting onto plane would you be able to see over the bow?

Second, I think you'd have a hard time to get the feeling for the throttle. I tried driving a foot-steered homemade go cart this fall and flipped the thing. I just couldnt get my feet to respnd correctly.

Third, I think a foot throttle would hard to keep steady in big waves.

Just questions here. I'm sure with enough practice you could get it figured out.

Jake B.

[will350]

Originally posted by Ron Hill
To me, this is why I was heading this way for my FOAM BOAT CONCEPT. Any added weight, wind resistance will make the rif a non factor. In a ONE DESIGNED CLASS....

I want to make the chine large enough, that you would spin before you rolled. The roll cage, will not have a top...exit through the top or front or back, just not the sides..


Pad the aluminum roll bars...

Post some pictures of your other MAGICIAL STUFF....

I've trying to imagine what it would be like to get in and out of a roll cage set up with that big fat jacket . It would be really tough for the rescue
crew no matter which side was up . That's a big consideration for me .
Lots of times I volunteer to drive the rescue boat . J Michael Kelly got a laydown upside down at Eatonville a couple years ago . He was out when we got there but the first words out of his mouth were " I couldn't get out" followed by a 1/2 lung of water .
That sort of bothered me .
My MAGICAL STUFF ? ? You mean the things that didn't work ? I'll see what I can find . Will

[Geezeracer]

J Michael Kelly got a laydown upside down at Eatonville a couple years ago . He was out when we got there but the first words out of his mouth were " I couldn't get out" followed by a 1/2 lung of water

If I recall, the boat was a D-Mod and went over when the foot came off. Mike got trapped by the cowl because it was hinged at the front with only the small entry/exit hole and he was force fed a lot of lake on impact. He looked pretty distressed just after, something he almost never shows.

Since then I've come to think that it might be smart to build floatation into one of those long cowls and revise the mount so the thing would pop off if it inverted.

John

[Geezeracer]

Throttle Control & Vision

I don't see a foot throttle as a problem. It never was in the inboard, and probably if a solution to bouncing was needed the answer would be something akin to the sort of throttle used in an early '30s Ford. In a Model-A there was a riser about an inch and a half high next to the gas pedal. The trick was to plant your foot on the riser then roll it over onto the gas pedal. If you just tried operating the pedal itself the car went straight into uncontrollable leaping and lunging. In a boat you need an angle brace on each side with a roll-on throttle on one side.

Vision might be a problem, but I know that in my case it really couldn't be any worse than kneeling because between the stiff jacket and flapping collar and my arthritis, turning around ain't a cinch deal. I think that I'd probably have to be more upright than Will is in the picture, and I might have concerns about fin spray cutting vision a bit, but I think for me that the orientation might work better...I know that on wheels I feel vastly more confidant and I'm faster and more inclined to thread the ol' needle.

John

[David Weaver]

Bad head postion should the fly wheel break loose!! Of course, there may be no good position in that event! Also, hard to reach back to fix that lose wire of fitting.

I believe that the driver is terribly exposed in the event of a stuff, unless some form of restraint is used. That far back in the boat with most of the driver's weight also furthest back could create a tremendous forward momentum in the event of a stuff. Sort of a catapult effect.

If I recall, Ron Schurilla built a capsule boat for 700ccH with a similar configuration (not exactly the same). He went sky-high in it at some USTS race. I also saw an inboard with a similar configuration that ran fairly well, but it was a chore for the driver to keep the boat "on line".

[Eric Engler]

I raced a 45 tunnel in that kind on reclined back position in the late 80s.

It worked out o.k. until someone crashed in front of me and I hit him. I went out the front. Well only 1/2 way me feet went through the cowl, until I hit the steering cables, my chest hit the wheel and there I stayed.

How ever the boat had lost it's sponsons and down it went. FAST! I was under water for longer than I ever care to be again.

No thank you. I will stay on my knees and wearing the proper safety gear that is available on the market today, most likely survive getting thrown from the boat.

If you want to sit in the boat get a capsule and bolt it in.

[will350]

Originally posted by Eric Engler
I raced a 45 tunnel in that kind on reclined back position in the late 80s.

It worked out o.k. until someone crashed in front of me and I hit him. I went out the front. Well only 1/2 way me feet went through the cowl, until I hit the steering cables, my chest hit the wheel and there I stayed.

How ever the boat had lost it's sponsons and down it went. FAST! I was under water for longer than I ever care to be again.

No thank you. I will stay on my knees and wearing the proper safety gear that is available on the market today, most likely survive getting thrown from the boat.

If you want to sit in the boat get a capsule and bolt it in.

Any and all opinions are welcomed and appreciated as they provide me with food for thought . I would like to point out that this isn't really about me "wanting to sit " . The point is to stay in the boat where you have some say over the situation , conditions,
etc. until the end of the event when either self-preservation or the rescue
crew take over . Getting thrown from the boat is , at best , a dice roll . Any accident is a game of chance in boat racing . Sometimes you win , sometimes you lose . I'm only exploring the possibilities of making the odds swing more to the plus side . Thanks R-14 Will

[jsilvestri]

In my opinion, the reason for being on one's knees is so that you can move around in the boat and try to keep it from getting out of control. I know that I've saved myself several times because I was able to move in the boat. In your photo, you show yourself in a position that in my opinion, leaves you with the least amount of mobility and control of the boat. My suggestion for keeping yourself in your boat would be to have tall cockpit sides and quick reactions. Good luck with your project.

[will350]

Originally posted by jsilvestri
In my opinion, the reason for being on one's knees is so that you can move around in the boat and try to keep it from getting out of control. I know that I've saved myself several times because I was able to move in the boat. In your photo, you show yourself in a position that in my opinion, leaves you with the least amount of mobility and control of the boat. My suggestion for keeping yourself in your boat would be to have tall cockpit sides and quick reactions. Good luck with your project.

I am in absolute agreement as to your point
regarding being able to move around in the boat . There's
no question about that . I think that in a runabout , it's a "must
do " thing . In a hydro , while desireable ( especially in the stock classes
with lots of boats and very heavy traffic) , I don't think that
mobility is nearly as much of an issue .
Could someone who runs a laydown correct me if I'm off on
this ? How much do you move ? Thanks , R-14 Will

[Jakeroub]

I have abrilliant idea!!!!!

Sit on a skateboard so you can skate forward or backward.

Jake B.

[Jeff Lytle]

Better do the velcro thang too so you don't slip off.

You DID say you didn't mind LOL's didn't you ?? :D

[will350]

Originally posted by Jakeroub
I have abrilliant idea!!!!!

Sit on a skateboard so you can skate forward or backward.

Jake B.

Levity is also acceptable .
Do you think I should be belted to it ?
Or would that be considered "restrained " ?
R-14 Will

[Jakeroub]

what if you belt yourself to the skateboard and have the wheels tun in tracks in the cockpit with a quick release mechanism somewhere. You wouldnt exactly be restrained to the boat.

Jake

[will350]

Originally posted by Jakeroub
what if you belt yourself to the skateboard and have the wheels tun in tracks in the cockpit with a quick release mechanism somewhere. You wouldnt exactly be restrained to the boat.

Jake

I really don't think I'll have to move that much . I'm waiting for Kevin or Mike to give me an idea of how far they move in their laydown.
But then again they may not want to be stigmatized by association (?)
I'm really LOLing because NO ONE has taken a really good long look
at that picture . There's a hint in a previous post . The first one to figure it out gets one of my "official" ATTABOYs .
Mike , Kevin ? ? ? Meanwhile think about this. R-14 Will

[Jakeroub]

Is that a small inboard engine?????

[Bill Huson]

I built a foam boat, very light. I ran it in ASH and 15ssH, qualified for the SO nationals finals in 15 in `89 I think, whenever they were in Lambertville NJ.

Hot wire cut the hull shape out of a 6" thick plank of beadboard, and hot wire cut the sponson and non-trip parts also. The bottom was skinned with 3mm plywood, deck WSET resin and one layer of 6 oz glass cloth. I think it wieghed about 60 pounds w/hdwr. I had to add lead to click the scales in 15ssH, a first for me.

After I showed one of our region CSH guys what I made it of he nicknamed the boat the "Puff-A-Dust", claiming that if I ever wrecked it wopuld explode in beadboard particles. Not true, proven by actual test.

[Jeff Lytle]

I see a pipe, and plug wires.............This is getting exciting !!

You got as Jet Ski engine in there ??

[Geezeracer]

This is getting exciting !!

Too bad...the little mpeg Freddy shot of Will baptising the entire yard with it is likely too big to slide in here...Maybe you can get Will to mail it to you. Or even better send the short flick of Cousin Dan's street legal yellow screamer that makes us look almost civilized.

John

[sam]

Thats the clutch you used so the motor wouldn't bog down, isn't it? .... start the motor and run to 3,000 rpm with no prop rpm ... 3,001 rpm engage prop and hose everyone down?

What's that got to do with laying down?

[Ron Hill]

What's it got to do with the "LAY DOWN"??


Will is working on developing a "CONCEPT".....I'm working on a "CONCEPT"......if we put together everyone's "CONCEPT" maybe, something could be developed that would help our sport.

My son and I used a clutch on our RC outboard (You've seen the pictures)... Will and I have emailed on this subject a lot... In fact, I either encouraged him or talked him into the "CLUTCH" idea.

Several things that a clutch is cool about:

1. You could start your own motors, without help....(No lifting required)....

2. Several engines could be running for LeMans type start.

3. If you were early for a clock start, just let off, your engine would not die, it would go to idle...when the clock hit 60..go...

Draw backs, when they are wet, they slip...


Truth is they may not be related, by Will is full of cool ideas...He fishing for figure out how to tie them together.

Truth is, most outboard racing is NOT USER FRIENDLY...

Bad things happen when you fly out of boats....

More pictures, Will....

A nice user friendly rig, semi safe, reasonably priced.....might have a market...

[Bill Huson]

There are designs for locking clutches. Once engaged they lock up, no loss of power transfer. I believe drag racers use them. In search of better gas mileage cars with automatic transmissions use locking torque converters.

Of course, we could always use the shifter on recreational outboards, but the huge gearcase required is a downer. Solution: Move the clutch/shift mechanism to the top of the tower betwixt the powerhead and driveshaft.

[Ron Hill]

Bill,

Email me re "foam boat" ronhill@speakeasy.net

Thanks...

[Kevin Martin]

YOU PARAMORES AND YOUR COOKY IDEAS, I LOVE THEM!!!! REALLY WE MOVE VERY, VERY LITTLE IN OUR LAYDOWNS, IF ANY AT ALL, THE ONLY GUY I REMEMBER MOVING AROUND IN HIS LAYDOWN WAS DAN KIRTS, HE DID A JITTER BUG WHILE RUNNING, NEVER AGAIN SEEN A GUY MOVE AROUND THAT MUCH. KEVIN

[Ron Hill]

Will,

I actually have drawing that are close to my planned scale...

The width to length ratio is about the same as Miss Budweiser...

Again, my plan is a Spec Boat made of foam that can be assembled by a dad and a son...or a son or a company could assemble them..

The reason for the depth, it to allow much turn up in the nose, so this boat can runa Lake Havasu, Lake Elsienor or Mission Bay, at 3 o'clock in the after noon.

The wing is really a sign board, but if done well, could look cool like Miss Budweiser...

As I emailed you, I'm not compeletely stuck on an OUTDOOR Motor...but want something cheap, that would go 60 tops...

What about an inboard drive with a little flew shaft so we could turn the prop, shaft and rudder...? (Like the K and B Outboard had...)

My pickle forks won't be this round, they'll be call Dolly Partons....but my plan is that a pickly fork could not get through the net...

Also, I'm planning that the right and left sponson are interchangeable, just flip it over for a right.. or flip it the other way for a left... Same with rear side deck and chine...both with be the same...

[will350]

Originally posted by propwash
YOU PARAMORES AND YOUR COOKY IDEAS, I LOVE THEM!!!! REALLY WE MOVE VERY, VERY LITTLE IN OUR LAYDOWNS, IF ANY AT ALL, THE ONLY GUY I REMEMBER MOVING AROUND IN HIS LAYDOWN WAS DAN KIRTS, HE DID A JITTER BUG WHILE RUNNING, NEVER AGAIN SEEN A GUY MOVE AROUND THAT MUCH. KEVIN

Thank you Kevin . That's sort of what I thought . It puts the mobility issue at rest .
How about vision ? I remember Bill Diamond saying that he had no idea
that Mike was next to him at Eatonville . Surprising since it looked like Mike flew out over the top of Bill . Will

[will350]

Originally posted by Jeff Lytle
I see a pipe, and plug wires.............This is getting exciting !!

You got as Jet Ski engine in there ??

Not quite but your both close . ATTABOY gentlemen .
R-14 Will

[richieboy300]

almost looks like a snowmobile motor or dirtbike motor
Richie

[Ron Hill]

You going to turn like the old OMC power trim...where they moved the motor and drive? If your engine "BOX" contained the power and drive, oh, nice prop, too,.....

[Jeff Lytle]

It "IS" a snowmobile engine.

Rotax??

[Ron Hill]

Continued...
Just an idea for the "POWER PLANT"...

Sending you this pictures, remindes me of Tommy Ige, the first person to import Yamatos to the US.

Tommy was convinced he could pull a skier with a Model 80 on his Yamato V hull....

Well, he hooked onto my brother, all 6' 4 3/4", 220 pounds, at Needles, and he floored it...the current pulled him boat, motor and Model 80 and my brother, backward down the river.... After going down river about four miles... Tommy, in disgust, told my brother to get in the boat that "HE WOULD WATER".

Well, Tommy did "Water" (SKI)... we ran that Model 80, 14 hours a day for seven days , then raced it for three years and never took it apart....

Point here, Will, maybe, I should stick with MY FOAM DESIGN and let you work on the POWER DESIGN....

This idea just flashed in my mind... (You can tell, I took Engineering Drawing in High School....

[will350]

Originally posted by Jeff Lytle
It "IS" a snowmobile engine.

Rotax??

A 340 Yamaha fan/cooled with a provision for electric start .
30 hp or so on a single carb , muffled . I've tried my Arcticat vertically
and discovered that on a single carb the top hole is terribly lean .
This sould do OK in that regard . Will

[richieboy300]

i just think it's funny, me being from the south guessing a snowmobile engine
richie

[jsilvestri]

Ron,
I don't know much about jet drive engines, but it seems like that might be a good idea for your foam boat. I like the fact that if you fell out, you couldn't get cut up by anything. Just an idea.

[Qtower]

Will is that the out drive from the inboard or a gearfoot, hard to tell with the pipe hiding it somewhat? If it is from the inboard are you going to couple it with a chain or belt? This is a very interesting concept. I havent given the idea of using a snowmobile engine much thought because I didnt think my Mercury A/B gearfoot could take that kind of horsepower. My 440 Rotax makes 120 hp. easily. Is it possible for you to post a pic of the out-drive, or e-mail me one.