New helmet cost [Archive] - HydroRacer.Net Forums

Brian10s

12-30-2003, 04:49 PM

This is a good topic. I have always thought that you did not skimp on the price of a helmet. You only have one melon and you paid the money to protect it.

However, with the increasing cost of helmets, I have been doing some thinking.

Look inside your helmets. Most have a snell number, a size and what else? Throw out the size sticker (as we all should know what that means) and look at the other stickers. Some of those stickers are the same as you will find in any cycle shop in their helmets.

Besides looks etc, does anyone know what goes into a $400 shoei or bell or simpson that doesn't go into the $125 whatever that is at the cycle shop. If they both are snell approved, what else is there? Is there $275 more plastic or whatever in the racing helmet?

Now, I would like to think that the racing helmet is more special than just being orange but I do not know. Has anyone done the research? Anyone in the business or have an "in" that can explain this (in simple boat racer terms).

I would just like to be sure that the extra $ spent mean extra protection.

Any thoughts?

Brian 10s

Kevin Martin

12-30-2003, 05:02 PM

brian, a couple of us on this board have done research in this area, a few years ago, and asked the same questions you are. we ended up purchasing $149 helets snell 2000 at a local cycle shop, and painting them ourselves. nobody could show use the $250 difference in safety, some of the more expensive helmets fit real nice, and were real light, but after looking for a bit we found really nice fitting, and and fairly light helmets for less than half the cost. when it comes to my kids i'm a safety nut, i wouldn't have a problem putting any of them in a 100-150 helmet, if it were snell approved. if anyone here could give me some figures we missed a few years i'd be wide open to listening!!!

after the much talked about accident of mike bartlett out here last year, and the success of his helmet's performance in the accident, i was convinced, he was wearing the helmet i purchased in the above paragraph. kevin martin

David_L6

12-30-2003, 05:06 PM

I just bought a Shoei off of eBay for $165 delivered that normally retails for $350+ (thanks to Mike Beegle for posting). I bought the yellow one because they didn't have orange in any size other than small.

I paid $400+ for my last helmet (a Bell). The shield and most of the stuff to mount a shield got ripped off at the last race I went to. I may still be able to buy all the parts to put the shield back on, but just in case I can't I now have a usuable helmet.

edit: ripped off as in the water did it when I went in head first at 70+mph, not stolen.

Tomtall

12-30-2003, 07:13 PM

I'm going to buy a helmet this spring for my son for "J" class. I've look at many on the net. I see the less exspensive ones are molded plastic and lighter, virses fiberglass composite and slightly heavier. My concern is neck injury. I would think more weight is not good and are the neck collars working in this sport. I would think a collar would have issues with head mobility and saftey as far as looking around during racing. Give your thoughts please!:confused:

Dan M

12-30-2003, 08:08 PM

If memory serves me, Snell approved helmets are required by most racing sanctioning bodies. DOT approved helmets are approved based on a single impact test. Snell approval requires mutiple impacts and is a much more stringent test. Any helmet that has Snell approval should be acceptable for our racing application. The MOST important thing is to get a correct fit of your helmet. Make sure that fits snugly but comfortably. Too loose can be just as bad as not wearing one. My $.02

Dan

Tomtall

12-30-2003, 08:14 PM

I've found both materials used in the makeup of these helmets to be Snell rated.:confused:

Gordie Miller

12-30-2003, 08:28 PM

you could make the same comparison between automobiles. A new Ferrari F50 is approximately $600,000 dollars, a new Chevrolet Corvette is about $60,000. Is the Ferrari 10 times as good? NO, is it better, ABSOLUTELY. Same principal goes for helmets, luckily for us the difference between Snell approved and THE BEST is usually about $300.00. I'm sure most mothers would feel better knowing we put our children in the best available helmet regardless of cost. Ask yourself this, a NEW Dewald propeller is $350.00-$2000.00 depending on class, but they are available used for every class at roughly 1/4 - 1/2 that, yet we continue to buy new because they are usually better than last years technology. Isn't it worth it to spend the extra $300.00 dollars rather than say to your wife "remember the $300.00 I saved $300.00 on juniors helmet, we can put that towards the rehab". That is a very strong statement, but one you guys need to really look at. I've worn $500.00 helmet for 15 years now and have NEVER said to myself, you know I'll bet that $150.00 helmet would have done just as good of a job. These are just one racer's opinion but you DON'T get a second chance where this is concerned, if you can't put the best safety equipment on your children should you be putting them out there at all? Regards, Gordie Miller

18W

12-30-2003, 08:49 PM

Gordie- I agree with you 100%. I was wearing my racing helmet a few years back on a snomobile trip. I impacted a tree head on. First impact was taken by the chin of the helmet. That's why I guarantee I am here today! Spend the money, you don't get a second chance!!! That helmet was a couple hundred bucks, the hospital bills were a couple thousand, lesson learned.
Davey

Tomtall

12-30-2003, 09:36 PM

Gordie - I do agree with you on your cost verses quility argument. I also now you have been in the buisness of selling saftey gear for several years now. You have raced stock to OPC classes. In your opinon, is a brand name helmet (say "Shoe" or Simpson") advertised on a web site at a 50% savings, less safe, as opposed to paying full pop from the saftey equipment supplier such as Lifeline or Security product? Should there be a concern that the bargain price for the name brand, in the same model, on the web could be a reject that somehow made it out of the factory to be sold to some unsuspecting buyer? Also what are your thoughts on saftey collars being worn in the knell down class's?

Gordie Miller

12-30-2003, 09:50 PM

yes, every helmet manufacturer has rejects and some make it to market. I am a Lifeline dealer(sell Bell helmets), I personally wear an Arai Signet, draw your own conclusions. Do I discourage price shopping? No, competition is what capitalism is based on. I encourage everyone to spend their money wisely, but a helmet is not a place to take chances. For the overall small investment that it is, "better safe than sorry" you may not get a second chance. As far as neck collars go, yes they are a good idea, the HANS device is obviously the ultimate but totally impractical in a kneel down application. I hope this answers all your questions.

Bill Huson

12-30-2003, 10:19 PM

I've been riding motorcycles since 1971 and raced boats for a decade or more. No more boat racing but I still ride scoots and teach the MSF Basic Rider Course in the summer. Between boats and scoots I've probably used up a dozen or more helmets.

Helmets: They should fit the shape of your head, not all helmets will. Try them on and wear them for a 10 or 15 minutes. My head likes Shoeis. I paid about $220 for my last Shoei full-face, about $150 for a Shoei 3/4, both plain pearl white. Shoei also makes solid yellow and orange helmets. The $400+ helmets feature Ricky Racer paints jobs, and that's what you pay for. Not wise expendature since you'll have to paint over the fancy artwork with orange or yellow paint.

I can vouch for Shoei's crashability. Many moons ago I had a 3/4 Shoei on my bean when a geezer did the ol' left turn in front of me. *crash* I sailed over his geezermobile and landed head first, heard the fiberglass/kevlar crunchy sound of the Shoei giving it up. No damage to my head, allthough some folks would question that :-) Bought another Shoei and then a full-face which I find more comfy on the open highway.

Wore Bell helmets when racing boats. Too heavy for long scoot rides, but no problem for heat racing.

Jeff Lytle

12-30-2003, 10:49 PM

I used to take a bit of a ribbing about the safety equip. I used to wear. I brushed it off knowing where it was coming from, and it's intent was only another reason not to like the guy who won regularly. Sad huh?

Granted yes, it looked like I was suited up to drive GP Inboards, but every extra piece I added to my gear "added" to my confidence level when driving too.
I'm not the best swimmer in the world--Never was. Always got the "WHAT??" "You race boats and you can't swim??" I never said CAN'T--just not a strong swimmer, that was all.

When I raced in the 700cc Hydro PRO Class, I wore:

Simpson RX Helmet--A bit on the heavy side, but I liked the facial protection.
Security Chute Jacket--Made especially for me as a kneeler
Security "Anti Enema" shorts
Simpson Nomex gloves
Simpson Nomex high top shoes
Leaf 2 piece Nomex single layer driving suit.

As you can see, I took it pretty seriously.
When it came to props and other go fast stuff, My Dad used to tell me "It only costs you 10% more to go 1st class Son" The safety gear I wore was a bit over the edge I must admit, and cost alot more than the minimum standard for today including Kevlars.

For me...........It was all about my own piece of mind...........I didn't care what the others thought.

PS--Don't talk to me.....I've been BAD :(

PSS--If you're looking for a Deck Rider Sam, I'll ride with you ANY DAY !!

HRTV

12-30-2003, 10:58 PM

Hey you are still in time out :D

HRTV

12-30-2003, 11:04 PM

Ok Jeff you have been in time out since 4pm today you can come out now :D :D :D Ok guys its safe to talk with Jeff again :D

Jeff Lytle

12-30-2003, 11:13 PM

I'd probably wet myself anyway Sam !!!

Steve 77T used to recruit light ones too when he ran 1100CCR

Who was it Steve, Deborah.............???

Can I still have Dinner and a bedtime story Dan ? :confused:

Gordie Miller

12-30-2003, 11:18 PM

gee, imagine that, me telling a story. Anyway, back in the 70's Fearless Freddy was peddling Lifeline Jackets, which were WAY more expensive than the predominant Gentex of the day. Being kneelers you always had a level handy, ours was a 24" aluminum version. The customer would say, "why would I pay so much more $ for that jacket, mine is just fine. Fred would say, go get your jacket and come back here with a friend. Ten minutes later the potential buyer was back with his jacket(usually Gentex)and friend in tow. Fred would put on his Lifeline, hand the aluminum level to the friend and say, wind up and clobber me in the ribs with that level as hard as you like. They would, Fred might wince a little, then he would say, OK, now you put your jacket on and I'm going to hit you the same way. "The hell you are" was the typical response. Sold quite a few Lifelines that way. Can't do the same test with helmets but you get the point.

Joe J

12-31-2003, 12:12 AM

Tom, I went back to a full face helmet this year, along with a neck collar.

The collar does not hamper neck movements at all, and when I blew over my OSY at Depue this year and landed head first, I came away with no neck pains at all.

Our daughter started racing J last year, so I did a ton of research.
After I was done I bought a Bell fullface helmet from Lifeline. The reason was that Bell has different size shells. I wanted her in a full face, but did not want an adult shell filled with foam for her small head.

Did I pay more than I had to? To be honest, I really don't care if I did, I can replace the hundred dollar bill faster than I can replace her.

Joe Johnson

121TUB

12-31-2003, 12:26 AM

I was reading this thread and it got me to thinking of what the difference between the DOT and Snell ratings were so i did a little research and there is quite a big diffrence. Here is the link to the Snell Memorial Foundation site for the main diffrences between them. http://www.smf.org/articles/dot.html and a comparison between Snell M2000, DOT, BSI 6658-85 Type A and EN 22/05
http://www.smf.org/articles/mcomp2.html

Jakeroub

12-31-2003, 12:37 AM

Guys,

Really interesting conversation here. I'm sitting here wearing my full face Bieffe helmet at the computer. The cat's looking at me funny.

Do you guys reccomend getting a tinted face shield? Seems like I could fit sunglasses in here, but it doesnt seem right.

Jake B.

hydroracer25

12-31-2003, 01:00 AM

Tom/All,

Just a few words from my own experiences. Like an earlier post by Sheryl, I don't crash often (saying that with fingers crossed while knocking on wood) but when I do they've been pretty big ones.

In 1987 (prior to Kevlar) about 10 ASHs piled into a tight river course turn one, 4 of us ended up in the water. I got ran over while in the water. The boat bottom took paint off my helmet. Pitched the helmet after that and bought the best equipment I could ever since then replacing fairly often.

As Gordie, I wear an Arai Signet. Two reasons:
1) It fits me best. All helmets have a slightly different shape. I'd suggest taking your son to a motorcycle/powersports dealer that carries many top brands (Arai, Shoei, AGV, Suomy, Bell, Simpson) and have him try them on. Find one that fits best, note size and then do the price shopping. If not available in Orange or Yellow, buy white as you can get it painted solid for a reasonable price.

2) They are light. I feel the lighter, the better. If you go out of the boat no need for more weight on your head. Of course you may pay more $$ for it.

I probably wear about $1400 worth of safety apparel, but feel its worth every penny as its all that is between a prop, fin or boat and our body and will attest that its proven itself in a few cases.

1) Impact material in lifejact, although not necessary (in SO or MO), saved some ribs last year as the throttle poked me in the chest after a blow-over. Jacket suffered slight rip/tear, but impact material did its job.

2) Kevlar gloves lessened the injuries to my hand after a t-bone crash. I've also wear some "makeshift" Spectra socks (made from sleeves used in sheet metal/glass industry to protect forearm cuts). I'm looking at getting some made for next season as well for trial/sale.

Bottom line, in my opinion is don't splurge in this area. Its just not worth it. Obviously, a growing boy can add to the dilemma. Helmet should fit very well. Lifejacket, Kevlar/Spectra can always be bought a little large for future growth, but adjusted with belts and straps.

Hope this helps some.
Mark

forshey99

12-31-2003, 01:18 AM

This topic is marketing genius at work! Ferrari or Corvette? Shoei or El Cheapo? Mr Miller made a remark about capitalism making America go, well so does marketing. There seem to be many of you willing to stand up for products and their brand name be it through testimony, get what you pay for, etc. More likely, you feel safer wearing a product that a recognized authority has told you is better. Your favorite boat, superbike, indy, F1 driver wears a certain brand therefore it must be better. Marketing strategy. You feel as though they know something special about these products that you don't, which isn't really the case.
Cost. Cost is not a mere reflection of quality. It is driven by many factors, quality only being one of them. Availability of materials, finishing, aero testing, mechanisms(i.e. shield pivots), packaging, etc. all factor into the cost of any particular item. Just because a Shoei costs more, does not ensure that it is of higher quality.
Branding. Lexus are designed and engineered by Toyota. Acura by Honda. Infiniti by Nissan. In some cases they are produced at the same assembly facilities and inspected by the same quality control. But ask anyone who paid the extra 10-15 thousand dollars, and they'll tell you there is a world of difference between the American and Japanese badged versions. You be the judge.

In summary, the only way to make an informed decision is to put it in the hands of an outside, objective party. The Snell Foundation is a prime example. They play no favorites, if they rate your El-Cheapo the same as your Shoei, it's because it passed the same standards. Don't get me wrong, the Shoei may have more features, or be constructed to tighter tolerances than some off brand, but the simple fact that it cost more does not make it safer.

Disclaimer: The name Shoei was used as a general catch-all for the upper cost bracket helmets, not a personal attack on Shoei. I've got a Shoei, bought it for $150, works just as good as the Bell I bought for $550.

Brian10s

12-31-2003, 08:31 AM

I didn't think this would cause so much contraversy (Jeff's time out not included).

Now I would have agreed with Gordie and Mark (I being one of the ASH that had orange paint on the wrong side of the sponson back in '87) that you do not go cheap on safety equipment. I still agree with that. Remember the gloves and boots thread? I am all for making us safer. And I am the owner of a 1 1/2 year old $400 Shoei that I happen to love and would not trade for anything.

Now with that all said, I still haven't heard much on what makes a $400 helmet better than a $150 helmet. All this Ferrari vs 'Vette and that you get what you pay for is just opinion. What I was looking for (and not to put you on the spot but Gordie, being a dealer, you should have access to this info) what extra stuff goes into this $400 "racing" helmet that is excluded from the $150 "recreational" helmet? I think that there should be some extra something but is there?

Can someone tell me that there is something extra in a "RACING" helmet and what are the differences? That's the only way to settle this once and for all.

Brian 10s

epugh66

12-31-2003, 08:49 AM

what about kevlar chin straps and some nomex lining, is that the difference?

Tomtall

12-31-2003, 09:34 AM

Some realy good stuff being brought out here guys. I like the storys of the vetriens on this post that have the hands on crash stories that are indeed the true testimonial of what actually happens in a crash. I almost lost my father when I was 12 years old because of a cycle crash he had when not wearing any helmet! I saw him go thru 10 hours of brain surgery, 4 weeks of intensive care and 1 year of rehab. It was devistating to me and my family both mentily and finacially. My son wears a helmet for everything!Skatboarding,biking,rollerblading etc..I told myself after seeing my dad almost die that life is nothing to take for granted! I like the idea of Bell using the different shell sizes. I'm sure they are not the only co. that does this. I also know that the Indy car, NASCAR, Ulimited hydro guys are not price shoppers eather. They will pay $1200 for a helmet. This must say somthing in the price matter verses quility issue. This post could go on and on with pro's and con's on this subject. That makes it only better for the people making their choice in the end. I know I would have a hard time living with myself though knowing my son is dead because I saved $200 on a saftey product. Thanks!!;)

Brian10s

12-31-2003, 10:22 AM

Tom,
I could not agree more and I do not want to be the one saying get your safety gear on the cheap. You are right in saying you only get one shot at safety and you better make it the best.

But I do want to know that my extra $ actually bought something other than a warm fuzzy feeling. I want to know that there is something extra, another layer of juice, as Eric said Kevlar straps or whatever. Something other than the feeling that you spent top dollar and that should be good enough. I think we all want to know 100% that our extra money spent went into extra protection. And I think we all deserve that answer.

Most expensive does not always mean the best.

Brian 10s

Racer 30 F

12-31-2003, 10:25 AM

Tom; I've been racing for a good while now and to be honest, I'm on a tight budget. I'm not cheap but I'm like lots of others. I bought a new cut suit but my jacket is a good used one. I had to go with a lower priced helmet that is Snell approved. I bought it new. I wear a collar and it hasn't ever seemed to cause me any problems and it sure takes up the slack in my old neck bone. Also it keeps my head from bouncing so much. I've gone in the water my fair share of times and had the boat come down on my gourd more than once but never had a sore neck or head. Sure, if you can afford a big buck helmet by all means go for it. For me, I'll have to use what I wear now and if it ever gets a really hard lick I'll replace it. Whatever I wear it's better than the old phenolics I started with.
:)

Rick Fralick #69

12-31-2003, 12:53 PM

For those of you want a reasonably price, good quality AFX brand SNELL M-2000 helmet in Racing Orange, with removable and washable liner and cheek pads (you can even change the size when you want), check www.fralickboats.com price is $132.50 USD plus $12 shippping. Sizing information is on the site. Never had one returned. Sizes xs to xl.

Comes with a helmet bag, and UV clear visor, smoke, silver, gold also available at very reasonable costs. Lots of racers are using them and like them. Send your check or use PayPal (add 3%) to account rick@fralickboats.com

Rick Fralick, Fralick Boats www.fralickboats.com

brian

12-31-2003, 01:32 PM

Helmets are one crash use safety devices!!! Read the tags! After every crash you should replace. Almost all helmets are based on a unibody design like your car is and one small crack or even scratch can decrease effectiveness. Manufactures and I say you should never toss your helmet (I have never seen this happen at a race), you should not let it get too hot or excessive sunlight. Keep them dry and in a soft case.

Go figure the thing that saves our melon is a fragile item itself. Just like a pretty lady, take care of her she will take care of you.

Ps. I have an M2R helmet that rates better than $650 helmets and I paid $88 for it and $146 shipped to my door with 4 new visors!!! It pays to shop around.

PPS. I am a bad boy I hit the water my first year in a 1 boat crash… (lol) and did not replace my helmet but it is on this seasons to buy list.

PPPS. Do not replace your lady after each crash, this is not recommended. (See connection above)

David_L6

01-01-2004, 04:00 PM

http://www.bellracers.com/

121TUB

01-09-2004, 09:11 PM

Aaron,
There are many different types of material that are used in helmets
currently. Alot of the recreational helmets are made overseas and are
injection molded instead of hand layed up. Simpson racing helmets are made
in USA and each one is individually hand made. The helmets we make meet 3
different standards we offer Snell SA00, M00, and DOT. Please let me know
if you have any more questions.

there are differences but you will need to check the specification chart for that information. Most cases it depends on what the safety rating has to be.

thank you

yes there is a difference in the shell. The $400.000 and up helmets are made up of Kevlar and carbin fiber, that super strong and light weight some of the price is just the name brand of the helmet. The lower cost helmets are just fiber glass. Chin straps they are pretty close to being the same. Also the price has to do with being built over sea's vs. being built here.

Shoei helmets are made of differant composites than other helmets thus being
more expensive to produce. The composites we use offer a stronger shell that
are lighter than some of the less expensive helmet brands and this is why we
need to charge more. As far as the differance between one of our less expensive
helmets and one of our more expensive helmets the differance lies mostly in the
benefits you get with each helmet such as ventilation, removable lining, wider
field of vision, ect.

Best regards,
Shoei
PB

Thats what Bell, SRP, Simpson, And Shoei hav to say in regards to the helmet diffrences

Aaron Brown

Tomtall

01-10-2004, 09:02 AM

Aaron - Thanks for getting that info! :)

HRTV

02-13-2004, 07:54 PM

First off let me say I thought the box was empty and maybe the dealer I bought it from was playing a joke on me, yes !! it is so light I thought the box was empty ! I have always worn a Bell but thought I might try something different this year. The construction seems pretty sturdy and over all it seems to be a very nice helmet. The helmet is so light that you cant even tell you have it on !! :D Wells lets hope I never get to really test it out but so far I really like the way it feels.

Bought online for $291.00 shop around :D

Tomtall

02-13-2004, 08:38 PM

Hey Dan - Whats the model #

HRTV

02-13-2004, 10:07 PM

ARAI Signet is the model, I honestly thought the box was empty ! so light its scary !

DeanFHobart

03-23-2004, 04:32 PM

Dan,

What web site did you purchase your Arai Signet?

Is 'Yellow' legal?

Thanks, Dean Hobart:D :cool:

HRTV

03-23-2004, 05:04 PM

Hey Dean I got the helmet off EBay not an online store but I think Arai still makes the Signet line. On the yellow thing I dont want to open a can of worms on myself but I have seen guys wearing yellow helmets from coast to coast for years now so........... ? Honest answer I dont know. But I also wear black Kevlars so again not to open a can of worms but ....... ? :cool:

DeanFHobart

03-24-2004, 11:30 AM

Thanks Dan.... I'll go to the Arai web site. And, also check with some local motorcycle shops.

Best Regards. Dean Hobart:D :cool:

DeanFHobart

03-24-2004, 11:34 AM

Thanks Brandt,

See you at the races.

Best Regards, Dean Hobart:D :cool:

HRTV

03-24-2004, 11:51 AM

Hey Dean or anyone else that is looking for a Arai Signet helmet, this is the very same helmet I just bought a few months ago and I can tell you first hand it is the best helmet I have ever had ! My first chance to wear the helmet was in Ocoee a few weeks ago and it was pure heaven! I didnt even know I had it on :D

Retail cost is almost $500 so I would jump on this auction real quick if you want an Arai helmet only 8 hours left this is how I got mine.

*Dont let the XL size fool you mine is an XL and fits like a charm ! and my mellon is not that big :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6749&item=2468780880