anyone raceing d-mod,form-e hydro

[form-e one]

Just wondering if anyone racing d-mod or form-e hydro this year, and if so what races , thinking on coming over for a few races

[Team 222R]

seems DMOD isn't going to be so popular this year here in region 10. a stupid decision was made by apba to NOT allow the kick a** stock tohatsu motor to be a legal DMOD points motor.

i'm going to support my fellow racers in SOA and CORA and run whatever they need me to help the cause with my stock 44xs. i have a feeling we are going to have several FE races this year. the self-serving few back east want to let DMOD die... guess we'll help them.

the bass brothers need to know we are behind them.

[form-e one]

yaaa i even got a dirty im,,,from one driver saying how they dont want a expensive motor in d-mod part the reason not to alow,,,, deff narrow minded... maybe d-mod and some drivers that want to test can all get together and race form-e/850 or???? that so we all can race..... my prob is i have a d-mod as well,,, flip a coin i guess each morning to see which one I race heheheh,,,or just let someone else race the d-mod since my heart still with form-e ,,,,,

[mcbain]

If you bought a stock motor go stock racing, If you wanna race mod do what everyone else does and build a mod motor and quit cryin! and also how many tohatsus are available for purchase today from the bass brothers?

[Team 222R]

If you bought a stock motor go stock racing, If you wanna race mod do what everyone else does and build a mod motor and quit cryin! and also how many tohatsus are available for purchase today from the bass brothers?

here in region 10 we normally have only one or two real DMOD rigs show up to race. we have several new tohatsus who are glad to step up and work on set-ups for their new motors. you just hurt your class as those couple DMOD boats won't have a class now.

new tohatsus available? that's funny... as many as you want. i've got a question for you mcbain???? i need a new stock gearcase for my merc. any ideas?

[R-43Mod]

Well gentlemen it sounds like there will be 6-8 regular old fashioned 44 merc MODS on the beach over here on the East side, come play. We even allow the tohatsu to step up for points.

[proprider]

I built a complete mercury D-mod 2 years ago with all , readily available, parts for less than $4000.00. It even has the Tohatsu downhousing and gearfoot, thanks Bass brothers. I live in region 7 and built this engine because there is ALWAYS plenty of competition in the class. Pretty rare to attend a region 6 or 7 race and not have elims in the class. The class is so large that even the "stock" clubs invite us to help with the show.

I'm with Mcbain...quit cryin

[form-e one]

heck me not cryin,,, i have a tuhotsuuuuu and dmerc stock and 2 d-mods ...and my form-e..... was just looking for people to race with,,, the real people crying are the people who didnt want the tohatsooooo in there class seems they cant beet a stocker go fig,,,, me bin raceing stocks and mods prefer mods for 34 years soooo take that...

[mercguy]

again, people are not focusing on the BIG picture................just because a class is doing well in that particular region, does not mean it is doing well in others...................... the Dmod class is controlled by the people east of the Mississippi..........and apparently want to keep it that way..........I bet over half those racers wont show up for the Nationals this year in Oroville!!!!

PS: can you buy all NEW parts for that 44mod? nope!!!!!!!!!

oh ya........ I AM in the Mercury parts warehouse this week and sure as hell dont find any blocks,cranks, rods, carbs, end caps, etc on the shelves.................

Cheney and Bill......you might as well let the subject die.............its a lost cause...........

[blueskyracer]

If you bought a stock motor go stock racing, If you wanna race mod do what everyone else does and build a mod motor and quit cryin! and also how many tohatsus are available for purchase today from the bass brothers?


Did not every mod motor start out as a stock motor and then was MODIFIED. Thus the name of the class. :pullhair:

I must say Daren you are right!

[Dave M]

Not that I am saying I am for or against the decsion of letting a stock Hotsu is 750CCM.

But how about building up your ranks in Region 10 with what you have ? That would help the sport a LOT more than worrying about 750CCMH. You guys out there boast on how many records and kilo records you have and hold. So it seems to me someone out there knows how to build a Merc 44 Mod engine..... I can think of a few that are more than capable.

Maybe I am being to open minded thinking this would help.

Remember, you can always let them run in 750CCMH at a local club race for no points.... at least you could get the seat time, which seems like all you guys want anyway. I saw a few posts indicating all you did with the Hotsu in Mod was test wheels and set ups for the actual D Stock raceing. So what has changed ?

[Team 222R]

I built a complete mercury D-mod 2 years ago with all , readily available, parts for less than $4000.00. It even has the Tohatsu downhousing and gearfoot, thanks Bass brothers. I live in region 7 and built this engine because there is ALWAYS plenty of competition in the class. Pretty rare to attend a region 6 or 7 race and not have elims in the class. The class is so large that even the "stock" clubs invite us to help with the show.

I'm with Mcbain...quit cryin

it's nice that the bass brothers enable you to build a reasonably priced motor using their stock equipment. you would think you might show them a little gratitude and allow their stock motor to ride along with your big show.....

scared?????

[form-e one]

UUUUGGGGGGGG i just was asking who in region 10 wants to race d-mod and form-e this season so we could get together ,,, not start rivalry round 3,,,, must be lots snow and real slow back east????

[Team 222R]

Not that I am saying I am for or against the decsion of letting a stock Hotsu is 750CCM.

But how about building up your ranks in Region 10 with what you have ? That would help the sport a LOT more than worrying about 750CCMH. You guys out there boast on how many records and kilo records you have and hold. So it seems to me someone out there knows how to build a Merc 44 Mod engine..... I can think of a few that are more than capable.

Maybe I am being to open minded thinking this would help.

Remember, you can always let them run in 750CCMH at a local club race for no points.... at least you could get the seat time, which seems like all you guys want anyway. I saw a few posts indicating all you did with the Hotsu in Mod was test wheels and set ups for the actual D Stock raceing. So what has changed ?


we are trying to build the class dave. both stock and mod. why not let a guy buy a brand NEW motor and run for points in both D classes?

again i will say, "without enough legal boats the mod guys won't get points either".

i hope someday neil and sid decide the only way they will sell their tower and case is attached to a new motor.

[Team 222R]

UUUUGGGGGGGG i just was asking who in region 10 wants to race d-mod and form-e this season so we could get together ,,, not start rivalry round 3,,,, must be lots snow and real slow back east????

can't wait to have a beer with you this summer cheney.... i've heard some good stories about you....

[form-e one]

bill.... there all lie's the stories youve heard ,,,,heheheh,,,, i deff will be at moses lake and eatonvilee and lawerance,,, and of course at nats in orville,,,, soo if any moders want to plan on that speak up lets put something together,,,,,,, can mods be combined with pro at reg 10 races so as to let them race also,,,as we use todo in the old days,,,,,,,,,,, also how many d-stocks in region 10 pat and dave and bill and peters and??? as i will/can bring a d-stock also..... need to get my stocker going for the 1 1/4 mile comp records,,,,, give peter's some comp??? hehe hopefully

[form-e one]

haaaaa DAN,,,, you guys get your new boats built yet?????,,,me hopefully going testing this weekend at rock lake with my new kawi-rude,,,,, seems pritty good on the trailer so far,,,,,

[Trihedral_1]

you know how I love the rules. You guys could run your D-mod or D-stock in the pro class.... even a Tohatsu.

Jimi O. (305-R)

"7. Entries:
A. Races for each PRO class shall be run separately, but motors of a lower class may be used in a larger class unless otherwise provided by the
Race Committee. Equipment legal in MO and SO classes may enter in its equivalent PRO class; the driver must be registered in the PRO class
entered. For record attempts, National Championships and Divisional Championships, hulls must meet PRO dimensions for the PRO class
entered. At local races, MO and SO hulls, meeting the equivalent SO and MO hull specifications, entered in a PRO class, need not meet PRO
hull dimensions".

[jpro60]

"7. Entries:
A. Races for each PRO class shall be run separately, but motors of a lower class may be used in a larger class unless otherwise provided by the
Race Committee. Equipment legal in MO and SO classes may enter in its equivalent PRO class; the driver must be registered in the PRO class
entered. For record attempts, National Championships and Divisional Championships, hulls must meet PRO dimensions for the PRO class
entered. At local races, MO and SO hulls, meeting the equivalent SO and MO hull specifications, entered in a PRO class, need not meet PRO
hull dimensions".

So the way I read this you could hang your 750 or 850 mod on a capsule boat and run 1100cch, that'd be cool to see :pillow:

[drew79c]

Considering membership has been in a recent decline I feel that the mod committee let the entire mod membership and its constituants down. More available motors, more racers, more races, more money. Not exactly science to me.

[pro350hydro]

So the way I read this you could hang your 750 or 850 mod on a capsule boat and run 1100cch, that'd be cool to see :pillow:


Yes,absolutely! The Pro category doesn't care what BRAND the motor is as long as it meets the cc requirements.

[pro350hydro]

Not to keep this thread derailed but, The MORC not allowing a LEGAL D-stock motor into Mod is stupid. If the stock Tohatsu is such a threat to a Merc D-mod, why is it legal in the stock category as it races against a Stock Merc. If your d-mod gets beat by a stock Tohatsu, obviously you need to go back to the drawing board and/or do some more home work on your Merc Mod prgoram.

Plus a lot of guys who have ran mercs in the past have ran both Stock and Mod for years got tired of not being able to get NEW parts for the Mercs and have graduated to the Tohatsu. Many of these guys just switched power heads and run Stock and Mod. But when they have to have a Stock Tohatsu tower, and now a Mod Merc tower this makes changes more difficult, and cost more money.

Just my 2 cents, so Flame away at me

[dholt]

I have no dog in this fight...but it is interesting reading.

Wondering how much of this talk went on to your local commissioners before the Natl. meeting and how many of you appeared at the Commission meetings in Seattle to voice your opinions?

It may have swayed the vote.

And for the record, I believe the Tohatsu should be legal in D Mod in its stock configuration. As someone said...if it beats your "true" D Mod Merc, you got work to do.


Dana

[pro350hydro]

But how about building up your ranks in Region 10 with what you have ? That would help the sport a LOT more than worrying about 750CCMH. You guys out there boast on how many records and kilo records you have and hold. So it seems to me someone out there knows how to build a Merc 44 Mod engine..... I can think of a few that are more than capable.



Dave,

Many people are capable of building fast d-mods. I've heard many are simply tired of scrounging for used parts to build such motors when new options are available. I don't see the Tohatsu as a threat in the Mod category. Why should it be? It's a legal d-stock motor. Maybe they should change the name of the tohatsu to Yamato, or Sidewinder, then it would be legal in almost every class and category...

Who's bragging about records out here?

[sponsonhead]

I have no dog in this fight...but it is interesting reading.

Wondering how much of this talk went on to your local commissioners before the Natl. meeting and how many of you appeared at the Commission meetings in Seattle to voice your opinions?

It may have swayed the vote.

And for the record, I believe the Tohatsu should be legal in D Mod in its stock configuration. As someone said...if it beats your "true" D Mod Merc, you got work to do.


Dana



I was there. I saw it, Dana. It was the two guys on one side of the table (the R10 and 11 MO Commissioners) against the rest of the (Mod) world. They never had a fighting chance. Nobody was going to consider it, no matter what data was presented.

As I commented before: so much for removing barriers of entry for the Mod Category.

R-19

[dholt]

Pat,

So what was the reasoning the Commission gave for booting the Tohatsu from D Mod?????

Or am I presuming too much that there was a bona fide reason?

[sponsonhead]

Pat,

So what was the reasoning the Commission gave for booting the Tohatsu from D Mod?????

Or am I presuming too much that there was a bona fide reason?

Perhaps some of the MORC members that frequent this site can explain.

R-19

[Danny Pigott]

I am not taking sides in this an don't care if the Tots. is in or not .I have raced D mod from 1972 when the MOD Div started in APBA and before that in NOA. I am a muti Nat's Champion in this class when it was EMH until some D### Mod Com. changed it. to D mod. I was a MOD Com. for years so i know how things work, Here is why i think the Com did not let the Tot's in D mod. This year it is running stock and all is well. But in the next couple years there will be more an more Tot's an more used power heads. And if it is still getting beat by the Merc the TOT's drivers will try to change the rules to let them run the same mods that the Merc does. Then what will happen to the Merc, Remember that the Tot's is a 43 ci. Looper an allready has a good ex. sys. and a lot better reed sys. If i remember right the 3 hole omc started off in FE as a stock motor an the 6 hole merc was comp. with it, look at it now. How about when the 30 Merc was the motor in C stock, they let the Yamato in an not long after that the Yamato drivers voted the Merc out of the class. This is just my 2 cents but i think i'am right.

[H20racer]

Danny, Well said case closed!!!!!

[sponsonhead]

Perhaps some of the MORC members that frequent this site can explain.

R-19

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

http://www.hydroracer.net/forums/showpost.php?p=152602&postcount=2

R-19

[94H]

To start, these are my words and not the words of the Mod Commission. I still hate posting on HR

2009 Mod Commission Meeting - Raleigh, NC
The Mod commission was asked to allow the Tohatsu engine to be run as a prototype engine in 750MH and 750MR using a four blade propeller with no engine height restrictions. After a lengthily discussion, the final vote was 10 in favor, 1 against and 1 abstention. Darren Goering and Shawn Cavanaugh stated that they would supply lap sheets (requested data) from 2009 race sites to help overcome the Mod Commissions concern that the Tohatsu could potentially hurt the second largest class that exists in Mod today – 750MH (500MH is the largest).

2010 Mod Commission Meeting – Seattle, WA
When the discussion for the Tohatsu prototype came up neither Darren nor Shawn were present as anyone else with any form of data or lap sheets. This was a total surprise to the Mod commission based on the fact that it was such a hot topic though out the year. The Tohatsu was not reconsidered a prototype engine for 2010 (1 for, 6 against and 3 abstain)

I don’t agree with Pats comment about the Tohatsu not be given a chance and I can’t believe that Darren is complaining when he had the opportunity to prove that the Tohatsu would fit correctly in the 750 class. Call us idiots or whatever – those are just words. We’re a pretty solid commission with a strong passion about Mod racing.

The persons representing Tohatsu seem to think that the Mod commission would accept words over data which is not the way we operate. The opportunity was squandered by Tohatsu, not the Mod Commission.

[form-e one]

wow ask one question and looook out,,, mod commission in there glory maybe should have left it as a probation motor???since lack of evidence,,,,but as ive read before there was lots of evidence given to commision years before... hec ime sure they where at races watching daaaa,,just seems hurts boat raceing in general.... cost??? seems ive heard that alot ,,, hec now guys selling mercs for 6,000 i know there makeing money on that, they sure as hec didnt cost that years ago.... in my opinion,,,what has merc or omc/brp done for us lately as a hole???????nothing!!!! i think we need to support our small motor manufacturers,,,ie hot rod, yamato, bass,,,,,only new motors comeing in,,,,, hec try buying a electronic ignition for your d-mod lately,,, if you can find one,,600$ plus,,,, uggg,,, seems might need some new commissioners with thicker glasses to see the races,,,mmmm just my 3.5 cents..,,,, me going to work on my rude ,,,,,uggg..

[spellingteacher]

wow ask one question and looook out,,, mod commission in there glory maybe should have left it as a probation motor???since lack of evidence,,,,but as ive read before there was lots of evidence given to commision years before... hec ime sure they where at races watching daaaa,,just seems hurts boat raceing in general.... cost??? seems ive heard that alot ,,, hec now guys selling mercs for 6,000 i know there makeing money on that, they sure as hec didnt cost that years ago.... in my opinion,,,what has merc or omc/brp done for us lately as a hole???????nothing!!!! i think we need to support our small motor manufacturers,,,ie hot rod, yamato, bass,,,,,only new motors comeing in,,,,, hec try buying a electronic ignition for your d-mod lately,,, if you can find one,,600$ plus,,,, uggg,,, seems might need some new commissioners with thicker glasses to see the races,,,mmmm just my 3.5 cents..,,,, me going to work on my rude ,,,,,uggg..

Forget the rude, I suggest you work on your spelling and grammar!

[form-e one]

me too old to give a **** these days bud,,,, ime sure you'aalll get the jest,,,,,

[pro350hydro]

Forget the rude, I suggest you work on your spelling and grammar!

says the spelling teacher that doesn't sign his/her name

[A/B Speedliner]

Wow!!!

[HydroKyle93R]

cheyney, i appreciate that you are trying to get a class together and not start any drama. its too bad our fellow racers cant pull this stick out of their asses and drop the issue. let me ask this: when did whining on the internet after the fact ever make a difference? From my experience, it seldom happens.

You guys should just drop this. its taking up too much valuable space the internet. Plus, its interrupting my reading of more pertinent arguments.

94H: Thank you for posting that personal anecdote from the meetings. i think this should clear the air.

[hydroman6]

If the Tohatsu is not a legal motor for 750ccmh and was not a legal motor in the 2009 racing season then why are there people listed on the APBA web site with national points who raced with the Tohatsu motor in this class? Some of these people did not even have an APBA card allowing them to race modified outboard! Stock outboard card only! go figure...

[mercguy]

To start, these are my words and not the words of the Mod Commission. I still hate posting on HR

2009 Mod Commission Meeting - Raleigh, NC
The Mod commission was asked to allow the Tohatsu engine to be run as a prototype engine in 750MH and 750MR using a four blade propeller with no engine height restrictions. After a lengthily discussion, the final vote was 10 in favor, 1 against and 1 abstention. Darren Goering and Shawn Cavanaugh stated that they would supply lap sheets (requested data) from 2009 race sites to help overcome the Mod Commissions concern that the Tohatsu could potentially hurt the second largest class that exists in Mod today – 750MH (500MH is the largest).

2010 Mod Commission Meeting – Seattle, WA
When the discussion for the Tohatsu prototype came up neither Darren nor Shawn were present as anyone else with any form of data or lap sheets. This was a total surprise to the Mod commission based on the fact that it was such a hot topic though out the year. The Tohatsu was not reconsidered a prototype engine for 2010 (1 for, 6 against and 3 abstain)

I don’t agree with Pats comment about the Tohatsu not be given a chance and I can’t believe that Darren is complaining when he had the opportunity to prove that the Tohatsu would fit correctly in the 750 class. Call us idiots or whatever – those are just words. We’re a pretty solid commission with a strong passion about Mod racing.

The persons representing Tohatsu seem to think that the Mod commission would accept words over data which is not the way we operate. The opportunity was squandered by Tohatsu, not the Mod Commission.

whoa whoa whoa.................lets back up a couple years when Howard Shaw provided all the info you requested.................what was done with that?????????? He even had a powerhead available for the commish to take apart and inspect...............

as to my data, it was available to my Commish, it was apprently overlooked? I still have it all, but highly doubt the current commissioners would want to look at it now!!

seems the current commish did not have a problem allowing a RESTRICTED 102/302 into Bmod? Why is 500mod the biggest class in MOD now??? Because a NEW motor is allowed.........that being the 302!!!!!!!!!!

[mercguy]

cheyney, i appreciate that you are trying to get a class together and not start any drama. its too bad our fellow racers cant pull this stick out of their asses and drop the issue. let me ask this: when did whining on the internet after the fact ever make a difference? From my experience, it seldom happens.

You guys should just drop this. its taking up too much valuable space the internet. Plus, its interrupting my reading of more pertinent arguments.

94H: Thank you for posting that personal anecdote from the meetings. i think this should clear the air.

Kyle, when you start spending your own money on motors and equipment maybe you will find that stick too!

............ maybe I should ask the Bryne Bros to sponsor all of my racing equipment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[94H]

Darren,
I have been on the Mod Commission for the last eight years and I do not have any performance or lap sheet data from Howard Shaw.

The engine you speak of was never sent to the Midwest and we're told it sat on Howards office floor. We had three engine builders in Indiana ready to co -build a 850 engine to see what it would do (using our tower housing and gear box). At the time, this seemed to be the only way we would get the data we needed to evaluate the engine performance and ET's around a race course. Please discuss these details with Howard.

As far as your data, all I can say is we traveled to Seattle to see it and you weren't there. Why do you blame other people when this responsibilty was yours.

We have been discussing the Tohatsu in our Mod Commission meetings for last five years and the factory representatives have not supplied what was asked. Makes me wonder if you guys ever did your homework in school.

This is very after the fact and I am only speaking up because this issue is not the fault of the Modified Commission. We don't deserve the bashing that you guys are giving us. I'm really getting tired of it.

Respectfully,

Bob Koschka - Region 7

[mercguy]

Darren,
I have been on the Mod Commission for the last eight years and I do not have any performance or lap sheet data from Howard Shaw.

The engine you speak of was never sent to the Midwest and we're told it sat on Howards office floor. We had three engine builders in Indiana ready to co -build a 850 engine to see what it would do (using our tower housing and gear box). At the time, this seemed to be the only way we would get the data we needed to evaluate the engine performance and ET's around a race course. Please discuss these details with Howard.

As far as your data, all I can say is we traveled to Seattle to see it and you weren't there. Why do you blame other people when this responsibilty was yours.

We have been discussing the Tohatsu in our Mod Commission meetings for last five years and the factory representatives have not supplied what was asked. Makes me wonder if you guys ever did your homework in school.

This is very after the fact and I am only speaking up because this issue is not the fault of the Modified Commission. We don't deserve the bashing that you guys are giving us. I'm really getting tired of it.

Respectfully,

Bob Koschka - Region 7



your right Bob.................I WILL take FULL REPSONSIBILITY for the info I obtained during the 09 racing season not being presented at the Meeting!!!!!!! I STILL will not agree with the actions the commish took on the subject!!! Building the motor for 850cc has nothing to do with it being allowed in 750cc...........how would that be pertinant for data for 750cc? Where is the data provided that allowed the motor to be APPROVED for use in 850cc?????? Was there any???? doesn't seem to be very consistant.......

PS: you might get on the phone with the FACTORY rep and see why he/they do not get involved with this subject in APBA!!! They sure dont have a problem with the NBRA leadership!!!!!!!

[hydroman6]

If the Tohatsu is not a legal motor for 750ccmh and was not a legal motor in the 2009 racing season then why are there people listed on the APBA web site with national points who raced with the Tohatsu motor in this class? Some of these people did not even have an APBA card allowing them to race modified outboard! Stock outboard card only! go figure...

I DID NOT make this post. Is it possible to hack an avitar and signature? If you dont have to stones to make a statement, don't do it using someone elses name. ESPECIALLY MINE! I am contacting Bluesky next.

[mercguy]

bill.... there all lie's the stories youve heard ,,,,heheheh,,,, i deff will be at moses lake and eatonvilee and lawerance,,, and of course at nats in orville,,,, soo if any moders want to plan on that speak up lets put something together,,,,,,, can mods be combined with pro at reg 10 races so as to let them race also,,,as we use todo in the old days,,,,,,,,,,, also how many d-stocks in region 10 pat and dave and bill and peters and??? as i will/can bring a d-stock also..... need to get my stocker going for the 1 1/4 mile comp records,,,,, give peter's some comp??? hehe hopefully

Cheney, we have between 8-10 D stocks..........so that class is "no-worries".............

[R-43Mod]

wow, If you guys in region 10 want a place to run your D-mods-tots we have it, 6-8boats on the beach beats sitting on the trailer, cheaper too. Cheney we are getting closer to having new wood.

[mercguy]

wow, If you guys in region 10 want a place to run your D-mods-tots we have it, 6-8boats on the beach beats sitting on the trailer, cheaper too. Cheney we are getting closer to having new wood.

if you remember, a couple of us Reg10 D/Dmod guys were at your end of the season 09 Moses race..............including a Tohatsu.........we came away with good results! Mind it the winner was a 40mod...........2nd was a Tohatsu....dont recall 6-8 other mods though........

[R-43Mod]

Yes I do and we had a blast!! From what I hear there have been much activity over the winter, a few people we have not heard from in a while, as always proof is in the warm bodies that actually show up. Hope to see you this year.
Dan

[blueskyracer]

Yes I do and we had a blast!! From what I hear there have been much activity over the winter, a few people we have not heard from in a while, as always proof is in the warm bodies that actually show up. Hope to see you this year.
Dan

Dan, post some pictures of the new wood you and Tyler are working on or is it Top Secret :limb: it-s-friday

[R-43Mod]

Oh, it's top secret, all I'm at liberty to say is if it works C-Stock should be fun!!

[Dave M]

I asked what has changed ? From reading along HR the last few years I have seen posts about people running the Hotsu in 750CCMH just to test. If all you want is another class to use the same equipment to race I don't see the problem. Run it for no points. Why would you care about points if you are just testing in the class anyway ? Or has something changed ?

Bob Koshka has been in boat racing longer than just about anyone in MOD. I would take what he says as gospel. So if he says Darren did not show and present what was asked, I believe him. Bob has integrity, and knows the process. I wouldn't try to tear him down, you will lose. You would be hard pressed to replace him on the commish. Fair, factual and very giving to the sport.

I also provided my Reg 6 commish a proposal for the Nat meeting. It did not make it even to a vote, so that is how the process works.

I don't personally have an interest in the hotsu being in 750CCM so as long as the process is followed and the rules followed, you guys should be pleased. Just becasue the outcome is not what you wanted does not mean it was not meaninful.

Dan Piggot said it best. Look at history. Make the decisions from there. I don't race 750CCM so i don't have a say.

Why not continue to build the Mod/Stock ranks there, just run a local class of D Mod that allows both engines in ? Then you can have your testing and more seat time. Heck you can run three classes with it if you do..... DSH/850CCMH and local class with Hotsu and Mercs.

And for the rest of the country east of there, the parts for the Mercs are not so hard to find. Weisco pistons, I have seen the ads by Dave Scott, Phil Mcdaniel, etc. There are pistons new in box available..... I bet you can still buy rods..... bearings you can buy new from any good bearing supply store, and cheaper than Merc ever had them for. heck, I have seen several stock 55H blocks on ebay.... even posted on this website. Maybe if one of you guys had the start up cash, you could stockpile some inventory and offer it as a one stop shopping center for your Merc 750CCM. Dudley Malone sells the megaphones, Eric Vanover sells the filler blocks, all new stuff.

I guess it is not stock, it is Mod. You should have to do a little homework to make an engine and tweak on it. Kind of the way it works I guess.

[guedo499]

bill.... there all lie's the stories youve heard ,,,,heheheh,,,, i deff will be at moses lake and eatonvilee and lawerance,,, and of course at nats in orville,,,, soo if any moders want to plan on that speak up lets put something together,,,,,,, can mods be combined with pro at reg 10 races so as to let them race also,,,as we use todo in the old days,,,,,,,,,,, also how many d-stocks in region 10 pat and dave and bill and peters and??? as i will/can bring a d-stock also..... need to get my stocker going for the 1 1/4 mile comp records,,,,, give peter's some comp??? hehe hopefully

I remember when I was just a young lad, my pops told be not to hang around you guys! Too many f-bombs I assume...

In undergrad, I was recruited to be a tutor in advanced math, econ and creative writing. I assume you have the math down just fine, but after the races I'd be more than happy to go over some grammar tutorials with you! Ha! Just giving you a hard time!! I do look forward to racing against you, as when you are growing up, every kid watches the races and see the people out there; it's really cool to race against those people when you finally have a chance!

By the way, I'll be sporting a "D-Mad" quiet Merc this year - with a remote choke and a starter to boot!

See you at the start!

[Danny Pigott]

Where can i buy a 2010 40 HP Tohatsu , I have a 40 Yamaha but don't think it will run with the Tohatsu. I might try it in FEH. With the right boat an the motor lower enough it might work. I remember in the late 70' i tried to get the 3 hole OMC on the table for EMH 44. h### they almost ran me out of the room. Next i tried to get the short tower for Then EMH on the table, The VP told me that he put it on, and now for me to get it passed, he said it did not stand a chance because drivers would not give up there Bayer towers. I had drove a lot of PRO Hydros ,an knew how much better they were . the VP was right it did not pass, it was a tie vote. And in that case the rule stayed the same.Then later it was passed some time in the late 80'
s i guess.

[94H]

Daren, Dana and Pat,
I went to the archives this weekend and found the following timeline of events. I retract my earlier comment about performance data from Howard, I have data from Howard which shows torque / HP of the Tohatsu compared to the 44XS. I do not have any lap sheet data.

Here are the Mod Commission events since 2004

2004 – Milwaukee
•A letter was submitted by Neil Bass asking the Mod Commission to allow the Tohatsu engine in the D and the FE class. Details in his letter outlined his business plan and parts availability.

2005 – Atlanta
* The Tohatsu engine was accepted as a legal FE engine with specifications same as the 44 XS (no open exhaust). 11 in favor / zero against / 1 abstain
•Tohatsu was made prototype engine in the D Class.

2006 – Fort Lauderdale –
•A four page spec sheet for the Tohatsu engine was handed out by Howard Shaw. The spec sheet included engine specifications and Dyno data from Weinandt Performance Technology.
•A proposal was made to make the Tohatsu legal in the D Class.
•No Motion was made to allow the Tohatsu as a legal D engine.

2007 – Los Angeles
•Motion passed to allow the Tohatsu engine as a prototype (second time) in the D class for the 2007 year – Motion revised later in the meeting
•Tohatsu discussion was re-opened and motion was passed to allow the stock Tohatsu to run as a prototype in D class using a four blade propeller and no height restrictions.

2008 – Detroit
•No Tohatsu performance / lap sheet data was presented to the Mod Commission .
•A proposal was made to make the Tohatsu legal in the750 class - failed 6 against / 5 in favor and 2 abstain

2009 – Raleigh
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to run in the 750 class in stock configuration with 4 blades and no height restrictions. Failed – 4 in favor / 7 against / 4 abstain
•The Tohatsu engine was approved to be run in 750 class as a prototype (third time) with a four blade propeller and no height restrictions. Data was to be gathered from East and West coast race sites and presented at the 2010 Seattle meeting ( 10 in favor / 1 against and 2 abstain).

2010 – Seattle
•No one responsible for the 2009 lap sheet data was present at the 2010 meeting.
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to race in 750 in stock form ( three blade propeller and ½” height restriction) – failed (3 for / 6 against / 1 abstain)
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to race in 750 in stock form with a four blade and no height restriction)– failed ( 1 for / 6 against / 3 abstain)

Bob Koschka

[14-H]

The Tohatsu has been legal in D Stock for 3 years and everyone thought it would immediately eliminate the 44XS stock. The Tohatsu hasn't won the nationals or set a record yet in D Stock!

[Brian10s]

Doesn't look like worry but a lack of follow through by the individuals that had requesting the Tohatsu. All that was asked for was some summary sheets with lap times for 2 classes (750 & DSH w/ who ran a Tohatsu). All it would have taken was 5 minutes per race with the scorer and a few stamps. This is not a huge deal. It seems to be the easy route to call someone scared and chicken when in reality, its pretty easy to see who dropped the ball.

And Ed, if memory serves, you have asked for data on several items during your first run as top dog. Not to mention the parity committies that were set up. Wither data is needed or not isn't the point. The Commission asked for it in order to make the best decision possible and received nothing in return.
I have zero invested in this (except I was really hoping Tball Koschka would have been much more entertaining and less logical about this) but unless there is something missing here, it seems pretty clear where the 3 year hold up is.

[Art K]

In NBRA racing we allow the Hatsu to run in our D class Which consists of the Hatsu & the Stock 44ci Merc and the Mod 40ci Merc or the old 55H. All motors can run Any prop with no height restrictions,same weight. It is a real dog fight trying to beat the Mod 40ci Merc. A good Mod Merc is more than competitive. Our E class is the 44ci Merc only motor allowed their. Me & my son run a Hatsu and 44ci Mod Merc & their is no way the Hatsu will run with Merc 5mph difference or more. All I can say if your 44 Mod won,t beat a Hatsu you have a real pig.
Art K

[94H]

The Tohatsu has been legal in D Stock for 3 years and everyone thought it would immediately eliminate the 44XS stock. The Tohatsu hasn't won the nationals or set a record yet in D Stock!

Ed,
We're not talking Stock configuration, we want to see what happens when you use a 4 blade propeller with no height restrictions. I haven't looked at numbers but I'd guess the 750Mod class has more participants than DSH and we're concerned.

Intersting use of words - "yet in D Stock"

BK

[blueskyracer]

Ed,
We're not talking Stock configuration, we want to see what happens when you use a 4 blade propeller with no height restrictions. I haven't looked at numbers but I'd guess the 750Mod class has more participants than DSH and we're concerned.

Intersting use of words - "yet in D Stock"

BK

If it is not legal then how are you going to get data about four blades and no height restrictions. If it has been shown that the Tohatsu is not up to the performance of a Merc than what is the big deal?

[mercguy]

Daren, Dana and Pat,
I went to the archives this weekend and found the following timeline of events. I retract my earlier comment about performance data from Howard, I have data from Howard which shows torque / HP of the Tohatsu compared to the 44XS. I do not have any lap sheet data.

Here are the Mod Commission events since 2004

2004 – Milwaukee
•A letter was submitted by Neil Bass asking the Mod Commission to allow the Tohatsu engine in the D and the FE class. Details in his letter outlined his business plan and parts availability.

2005 – Atlanta
* The Tohatsu engine was accepted as a legal FE engine with specifications same as the 44 XS (no open exhaust). 11 in favor / zero against / 1 abstain
•Tohatsu was made prototype engine in the D Class.

2006 – Fort Lauderdale –
•A four page spec sheet for the Tohatsu engine was handed out by Howard Shaw. The spec sheet included engine specifications and Dyno data from Weinandt Performance Technology.
•A proposal was made to make the Tohatsu legal in the D Class.
•No Motion was made to allow the Tohatsu as a legal D engine.

2007 – Los Angeles
•Motion passed to allow the Tohatsu engine as a prototype (second time) in the D class for the 2007 year – Motion revised later in the meeting
•Tohatsu discussion was re-opened and motion was passed to allow the stock Tohatsu to run as a prototype in D class using a four blade propeller and no height restrictions.

2008 – Detroit
•No Tohatsu performance / lap sheet data was presented to the Mod Commission .
•A proposal was made to make the Tohatsu legal in the750 class - failed 6 against / 5 in favor and 2 abstain

2009 – Raleigh
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to run in the 750 class in stock configuration with 4 blades and no height restrictions. Failed – 4 in favor / 7 against / 4 abstain
•The Tohatsu engine was approved to be run in 750 class as a prototype (third time) with a four blade propeller and no height restrictions. Data was to be gathered from East and West coast race sites and presented at the 2010 Seattle meeting ( 10 in favor / 1 against and 2 abstain).

2010 – Seattle
•No one responsible for the 2009 lap sheet data was present at the 2010 meeting.
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to race in 750 in stock form ( three blade propeller and ½” height restriction) – failed (3 for / 6 against / 1 abstain)
•A proposal was made to allow the Tohatsu to race in 750 in stock form with a four blade and no height restriction)– failed ( 1 for / 6 against / 3 abstain)

Bob Koschka



nice time line Bob!!! Here's a SERIOUS question...........................how was the Tohatsu approved for use in FE without testing or lap data? Especially since the motor was not ran the year prior..............you should also note that the 09 Proposal we (me and Cavanaugh) ALSO included FREEZING the rules for 3yrs for the Tohatsu (being raced as proposed with 4blade prop (which does not increase speeds) and no height restriction)......

PS: Dmod did have a few more participants than Dstock did in 09 BECAUSE of the D stock guys thats that stepped up to race MOD to fill the class...............remove those stockers and the numbers would be dramatically different.......atleast 10 less MOD participants if you removed the Reg10 participation...........

[94H]

If it is not legal then how are you going to get data about four blades and no height restrictions. If it has been shown that the Tohatsu is not up to the performance of a Merc than what is the big deal?
Blueskyracer,
Engines that are "prototype status" are allowed to run in a designated Modified class to gather performance data / lap sheet data for review. In this case the Tohatsu (with 4 blade and jacked to the moon) could of run in the 750 Mod class for data but no points. It is expected that the person(s) requesting the prototype status review their data at the following National Meeting.

Where has it been shown that the Tohatsu is not up to the performance of the 44? The data that Howard supplied the Mod Commission shows the HP / torque of the Tohatsu better than the 44XS (ranging from 3500 to 6750 RPM).

For once 10S and I are in agreement. What a strange world!

BK

[94H]

nice time line Bob!!! Here's a SERIOUS question...........................how was the Tohatsu approved for use in FE without testing or lap data? Especially since the motor was not ran the year prior..............

Daren,
I'm not 100% sure of this but I think it was accepted into 850 (without lap sheets data) based on fact that the engine specfications of the Tohatsu are less than the current 850 OMC engine.
BK

[mercguy]

Daren,
I'm not 100% sure of this but I think it was accepted into 850 (without lap sheets data) based on fact that the engine specfications of the Tohatsu are less than the current 850 OMC engine.
BK

what do you mean by "specifications" being less?? displacement?

[94H]

what do you mean by "specifications" being less?? displacement?

Daren,
I know a loaded question when I see one and I’m pretty sure I know where you’re going with this.

Remember that Sid Bass originally proposed that the Tohatsu engine be allowed to run in the FE and D class. The Mod Commission wasn’t just sitting around one day and came up with the idea to add the Tohatsu block to the FE list. It was Sid’s wishes to add the lower displacement Tohatsu engine in FE (850).

The Commission did approve the Tohatsu to be run in the FE class and yes it was without lap sheet data. The same Commission decided that more information would be needed for Sid’s “D” proposal to assure that combining a newer “loop port technology “engine with the older 44 Mercury configuration was the best thing for the D Class. The data that was submitted by Howard Shaw was adequate however lap sheet data always tells the story. We want to know the elapse time of a “good” Tohatsu compared to a “good” 44 Mercury. This is why we have the prototype status.

Six years and three prototypes later we are still in the same spot with Tohatsu.

I mentioned earlier that I became involved with this post because of the jabs at the Mod Commission. I felt obligated to present relevant data so that other racers, who were not able to attend the Commission meetings, could understand the time line of events. This was also the turning point where I decided that a few of the Tohatsu people should come with us while we’re being thrown under the bus (Daren!). I sort of apologize for doing this – sort of.

I need get away from the keyboard and spend more time on a new chamber for the 500MH. I hope that this post becomes more positive so I won’t have to come back.

Bob Koschka

[Dave M]

I think you proved what went wrong and where it went wrong. At least now the real story is out there for the folks to see.

I have no personal interests in the class, but I do find it important to know about.

Thank you for keeping a level head, you did better than I could, I am dubbed the hot head. I guess that happens when logic collides with common sense.

See you at the first IOA race !

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

OK, so now what can be done to fix this situation or will it need to wait for next years meeting?

[Steve Bork]

Cheyney,

It was great seeing the Street's and Korpe's at Capital Lake. IM looking forward racing against you this year in D-Mod. Always fun beating you when I have a good day.

Wow, lots of comments, let's get some D Mods and go racing Whidbey this year....

Steve 98R

[ram95]

OK, so now what can be done to fix this situation or will it need to wait for next years meeting?

Nothing is going to change things for this year, but it gives all of us time to think about what to bring to the meeting next year.

As for the Tohatsu being dumped from 750 mod due to lack of "data"..? What data? You call the race results from 2009 "data" ? I sure wouldn't want to stake any decision on it.

I must say, the 750mod folks who voted to dump the "hat" have suffered unfairly. Their fears were that unwitting "morons" within their ranks might in the future allow the Tohatsu to be modified. And, they knew their fears were well-founded based on experience. So they effectively killed the beast. It doesn't mean they won't run their Mercs on the Bass towers or Bass' bullet-proof gearfoots. The good side of this is that good stock Tohatsu's won't be carved up to run in Dmod.

I'll still run my D stock with the D-mods just to see if I can wax them. It'll be fun. And, I'll run the sucker at 0 height too... or whatever height I freaking want to.... maybe I'll use a 5 blade prop just for grins. The crowd won't know the difference... Mine will just have a cowling that says Tohatsu.

And, by the way.. for you guys on the 'left-coast', when you refer to East you need to be alittle more specific. Not just referring to crossing some big rocky hill into Spokane. Cause if yer talkin EAST that means East of the Pennsylvania/Ohio border. And, if any of youse want to drag yer pelicans out EAST.. to race EASTERNERS you're most welcome. I'll buy yerr lunch.

Alex